Possibilities to save spoils...

[Croste]

To help with mana screw they produced alot of mana excelleration and Man Lands in standard.
Bringing back some from Urza Block, Mutivault, and morph lands.
Basicly saying "Hey load your deck with lands that become creatures".

I aint bashing The Spoils, just letting Orionsash01 know that there is serious card floppers out there.
In my local area it is Magic.

[Lioge]

To help with mana screw they produced alot of mana excelleration and Man Lands in standard.
Bringing back some from Urza Block, Mutivault, and morph lands.
Basicly saying "Hey load your deck with lands that become creatures".

What you've just described are means that Magic has dealt with mana flood, not mana screw. You've described a means for a player to use the man-lands as creatures (possibly subjecting them to destruction via damage) or ways to play lands as alternate creatures via morph (Zoetic Caverns) which assumes you already have three mana in play. None of the things you've listed have had a positive effect on the issue of mana screw.

I concede, mana flood has been addressed in a few positive manners, but mana screw hasn't been addressed at all.

[kallisti]

What you've just described are means that Magic has dealt with mana flood, not mana screw. You've described a means for a player to use the man-lands as creatures (possibly subjecting them to destruction via damage) or ways to play lands as alternate creatures via morph (Zoetic Caverns) which assumes you already have three mana in play. None of the things you've listed have had a positive effect on the issue of mana screw.

I concede, mana flood has been addressed in a few positive manners, but mana screw hasn't been addressed at all.

Actually mana screw and flood are related. Fixing one fixes the other.

This is because if mana flood isn't an issue, you can increase your land proportion to the point that mana screw isn't an issue.

[Croste]

And by putting more land in your deck..IE Man Lands... you obviously better your odds at drawing a land.
You say you have plenty of lands.. no problem, its a critter also.
There is also spells that let you shape your mana however you wish (Manamorphose) and cantrip a draw.
There is also land search spells at a low mana cost.
All of which adress mana screw.

[joshlytle]

Actually mana screw and flood are related. Fixing one fixes the other.

This is because if mana flood isn't an issue, you can increase your land proportion to the point that mana screw isn't an issue.

I think players put far too much importance on the issues surrounding mana in general. Mana flood/screw is just the most obvious way to have probabilities work against you in Magic. The more important part of the game (the part that actually needs "fixing") is the fact that you can't put many speculative cards into a good deck. Actually, decks are getting so fine-tuned now that it's nearly impossible for a non-pro to make anything even remotely good. This discourages the average deck builder from getting creative with their cards.

In the old days of Magic, this was hardly an issue. Deck building technology had not advanced far enough to punish people who built looser decks. But now, you essentially have to play a deck designed by a top pro, or lose. The way the game of Magic works essentially requires you to not think primarily strategically when deck building. Instead, your main focus first is on making a deck that minimized the affect of luck.

[Croste]

I think players put far too much importance on the issues surrounding mana in general. Mana flood/screw is just the most obvious way to have probabilities work against you in Magic. The more important part of the game (the part that actually needs "fixing") is the fact that you can't put many speculative cards into a good deck. Actually, decks are getting so fine-tuned now that it's nearly impossible for a non-pro to make anything even remotely good. This discourages the average deck builder from getting creative with their cards.

In the old days of Magic, this was hardly an issue. Deck building technology had not advanced far enough to punish people who built looser decks. But now, you essentially have to play a deck designed by a top pro, or lose. The way the game of Magic works essentially requires you to not think primarily strategically when deck building. Instead, your main focus first is on making a deck that minimized the affect of luck.

Beautifully written. I couldnt agree more.

[Hordak]

In my mind mana flood and screw are actually symptoms of drawing 1 card per turn rather than causes themselves. That really goes to what Josh is saying about designing a deck to primarily combat luck.

[OnBoardGames]

I coulda sworn that there was a huge tournament not that long ago in Magic where the top 10 decks had 9 completely different builds in it. That seems like there's still a long way to go for diversity. Even Spoils boiled down to less than 9 different highly competitive decks...I don't really think that they were all that different of games. If you are plagued with mana screw in Magic then it is because you did not build a good deck, maybe one game but not consistently. I think it's just an old complaint that people have continued to use to complain about the game. In the last 4 pre-releases I have won or split top in every draft I played in (probably 20 or so in total). It seems like if mana screw was such a huge problem I should have lost at least a few matches in there. (actually I lost one but I built an incredibly stupid deck and had nothing to do with mana)

[joshlytle]

I coulda sworn that there was a huge tournament not that long ago in Magic where the top 10 decks had 9 completely different builds in it. That seems like there's still a long way to go for diversity. Even Spoils boiled down to less than 9 different highly competitive decks...I don't really think that they were all that different of games. If you are plagued with mana screw in Magic then it is because you did not build a good deck, maybe one game but not consistently. I think it's just an old complaint that people have continued to use to complain about the game. In the last 4 pre-releases I have won or split top in every draft I played in (probably 20 or so in total). It seems like if mana screw was such a huge problem I should have lost at least a few matches in there. (actually I lost one but I built an incredibly stupid deck and had nothing to do with mana)

Well, I didn't say diversity is gone in Magic. It's not. But the ability for a non-pro to design a top level deck is gone. All those decks were the results of countless hours of playtesting and refining from extremely skilled top players.

Here's basically how it works: many of those decks were designed by master deck builders that have a proven track record. Those people always seem to get an appearance in the top 8. Then, you have a mismash of several other decks. The funny thing about these decks is, they generally weren't as masterfully designed.

Basically, all the mid-level players worked and worked to try and make their own original deck. Everyone thought they had "the next big deck" from a strategic standpoint. What that means is, they analyzed the format and decided that certain strategies were prevalent, so they developed their own strategy to combat the main enemies they would face. The problem is, that point of view only considers strategic advantage. It does nothing to consider minimizing the affects of luck.

So, what ends up happening is maybe 1 or 2 of those many mid-level decks ends up just avoiding bad luck almost accidentally, and then it makes top 8. It's the very act of making top 8 that generally indicates a deck has that extra layer of avoiding bad luck. Most of the time the designer of that deck didn't even think about that angle as much as they should have. This is why that designed only has a showing for that one event, instead of repeatedly.

Basically, a deck must have all the best synergy AND each card must maximize it's ability to win completely in a vacuum. Only this type of design will allow you to win when you get all your cards right, and ALSO when you are in top deck mode and have to rely on 1 single card to finish the game.

[ShadeMemory]