An Apology and Thoughts on the Future of a Tournament Card Game

[Brad Meine]

First and foremost without excuse, I apologize.

I know that my tactlessness, especially the last few days but dating to when I joined the community, has caused more than a few headaches and countless more hurt feelings. I cannot honestly say that in some cases that I was not being malicious - because I was. I also cannot lie and try to tell you that at times I wasn't out to cause a bit of a stir - because, again, I was.

There have been many instances in which I have said things to members of this community and staff that either I shouldn't have or that I should have thought about before saying them; in person and on the boards. Again, for all this I apologize.

A number of members have privately messaged me - urging that I 'back my shit up'. In some cases, this just isn't possible. In any instance where I publicly, personally, and baselessly attacked anyone, there is just not an excuse. Sincere apologies to SubtleThunder (for lashing out at him), Matt Baranowski (for compromising our friendship), Kallen (for laughing at him), Scott Dodson (for doubting him and not returning his phone calls, yet), Hans (cause he's German and inturn poking fun at it) and the entirety of Team 6:32 (however many of you there are now).

[/kissass]

I owe all an explanation as to why I haven't been acting myself and hopefully make it good.

---

We all started and continue to play this game for different reasons. Mine boiled down to one thing initially and one thing only. I'm competitive. I like to win and I like to win tournaments. Magic wasn't doing it for me anymore. FNM, pre-releases, and PTQs were sub-par at best, yet they were the only facet throughwhich I could compete in a tournament setting (Goldies on a Friday night is OK, but ultimately not as cool if you're not 21). I had dreams of playing poker online for a living a few years ago, which have been completely dispelled now that it's illegal. It only came naturally that when I stumbled acrossed the Spoils, sold to me as a true tournament card game, at PAX06 that I'd take to it like a duck would to water.

You hear Scott Dodson talk about their baby with such passion and conviction, you know he believes with every fiber that Tenacious has got the next big thing. I can't help but feel the same way.

With this in mind, I was shocked and maybe even a little disappointed when I flew down to California to find that people weren't as competitive as I could have hoped. After what I saw as an amazing success during Open Beta, I was really expecting a greater turn-out and subsequently a more top-heavy payout. I'm not sheepish to say that I was unimpressed when I T8'ed in a 5k and walked away with $200 bucks when, in comparison, 32nd went home with $50. I would have felt cheated had I placed higher in the tournament. I apologize if this seems greedy.

What I was expecting was something resembling (but not limited to) standard Poker payout (comparing Spoils to Poker was, in fact, not an idea of my own design but something that I am regurgitating - having heard that Tenacious is interested in hosting Spoils demos/tournaments at large Poker events).

First Place: $2000 (40%)
Second Place: $1000 (20%)
Third & Fourth Place: $500 (10% each)
Fifth thru Eighth: $250 (5% each)

Citing Source: LINK

With so much money ultimately at stake, I want to be able to justify flying to major events. With a large quantity of the cash purse flowing out of the Top 8, I honestly can't do that and I really don't see how those even worse-off financially than I could do it either (and I can almost guarantee they won't). I really don't know what this means for the bus tour.

There sure was quite a lot to say about >>this<< thread. I'm proud to say that someone wiser than I said what I was thinking better than I ever could of.

The problem with pogo bear isn't that throwing it on the board is an auto-win. The problem is that its presence restricts the number of viable decks to a vanishingly small number. There's agro and super agro both including item destruction. All I see for tier 1 at this point is mono-elitism and rogue/rage.

He isn't the only one to encounter this as I have voiced this same opinion at a number of local events. Please read...

Spoils is a slower game than Magic and it's geared to be that way. Players are encouraged to build resource advantage and, by doing so, card advantage.
This takes time.

Decks like mono-gearsmith aggro coupled with the current time limit put too many restrictions on the number of viable deck archetypes. Removing creature VS creature interaction in a game that is primarily combat based reduces the skill level dramatically. Increasing round length to somewhere around an hour and adding cards to combat Pogo-Bear, covert characters and a very early offense will help open up the metagame.

Mix one part narrow metagame with an equal part unsustainable payout system and you have a recipe for disaster. You lose your tournament appeal and you become just another collectible card game.

I know attracting and keeping casual players is a problem, and I've heard TG acknowledge it, but I'm not sure how they're planning to address it. All I can guarantee is that paying everyone for showing up is obviously not a sustainable solution for the long term. Paying down to 32nd out of 39th place will not help.

I really want to see the Spoils succeed where so many have fallen short, but I'm feeling discouraged by some of the current trends.

[Ultamis]

I agree about 110% on the "just another CCG" thought.This game IS very well built,IS fun,and IS better thought out then most other card games BUT the problem is that right now,the T/CCG market is saturated,I think that card games are going the way of the arcade as in something that will stick around but wont be popular.The spoils is failing in my area and I honestly think that its because theres so many other card games,think about it:

Yugioh,Magic,WoW,UFS,VS,all popular card games.4 out of those 5 games are based on an anime/video game,and the other was the original TCG.The spoils,from the average persons point of veiw is just a white box.Its not based on anything and there were no ads for it(I mean adds for THE SPOILS not stores that sell it).The people around here only play because of the money anyway,not that thats a bad thing,but this game is becoming something of a "reverse mr.suitcase",You buy a few packs until you get 4 OLHB/Pluck/Heist planner and then you sit back and make money.

I would love to see the spoils last,but I honestly dont see it going past the cruise

[painted_klown]

Thank you for the apology Brad. It takes a great man to publicly say he was wrong (I can't say I personally disagree with everything you say) You make some valid points and are respected as a great Spoils player and from what I understand are a great guy in person.
Passions seem to run very high concerning this game. We as players feel as if we are part of helping something special grow from the ground up. None of us want to see The Spoils fail and I personally would like to see it around in another 20+ years. The are gamers and have a great business plan for getting their game out to the masses. It has worked very well thus far and I'm sure it will probably grow and change as the player base for The Spoils does as well.
The members of the staff have all been very cool and enjoy positive constructive feedback from this community, it's what helped shape 1st edition and I'm sure the way they are establishing and developing the "competition" scene as well. No other company has listened as intently and open minded to their fans in gaming history. That is something I think each and every one of us latched on to from the very begining. My guess is that they will continue to include ideas from the forums, TO's, local shop owners and such to evaluate what they can do to further it's (The Spoils) successes. Great ideas are to be found everywhere, and I am willing to bet that The Spoils will be molded by those ideas.
Kudos to you for the words of apology.
Good luck and I hope to see you playing The Spoils at a CON some day.

[Forget]

What I was expecting was something resembling (but not limited to) standard Poker payout (comparing Spoils to Poker was, in fact, not an idea of my own design but something that I am regurgitating - having heard that Tenacious is interested in hosting Spoils demos/tournaments at large Poker events).

First Place: $2000 (40%)
Second Place: $1000 (20%)
Third & Fourth Place: $500 (10% each)
Fifth thru Eighth: $250 (5% each)

1. There is no such thing as "standard poker payout" This is an example of a particular site's payout chart.
2. Them running events at poker events does not imply you can compare their payout tables.
3. The general consensus among top poker players is that payouts need to be deeper in most major events.
4. You got $200 instead of $250, your payout was adjusted 1% over what you think it should have been.
5. When spoils events have 3x as many people entring, performances that previously were T8 worthy will get you T16 at best. Deeper payouts ensure that people don't play 9 hours, come in on the bubble and get 2 packs.

With so much money ultimately at stake, I want to be able to justify flying to major events. With a large quantity of the cash purse flowing out of the Top 8, I honestly can't do that and I really don't see how those even worse-off financially than I could do it either (and I can almost guarantee they won't). I really don't know what this means for the bus tour.

There sure was quite a lot to say about this thread. I'm proud to say that someone wiser than I said what I was thinking better than I ever could of.

He isn't the only one to encounter this as I have voiced this same opinion at a number of local events.

Spoils is a slower game than Magic and it's geared to be that way. Players are encouraged to build resource advantage and, by doing so, card advantage.
This takes time.

Decks like mono-gearsmith aggro coupled with the current time limit put too many restrictions on the number of viable deck archetypes. Removing creature VS creature interaction in a game that is primarily combat based reduces the skill level dramatically. Increasing round length to somewhere around an hour and adding cards to combat Pogo-Bear, covert characters and a very early offense will help open up the metagame.

Mix one part narrow metagame with an equal part unsustainable payout system and you have a recipe for disaster. You lose your tournament appeal and you become just another collectible card game.

You're missing an important part there. We suck at this game. There is no possible way, given how long this game has been out, that the top players in it have anywhere near the understanding of the game that top players do in other games. If you think that with the current cardset the pest 3 or 4 possible decks have been made, you're totally wrong. Your narrow metagame is a good point though, and the metagame is about to nearly double in 2 weeks.

I know attracting and keeping casual players is a problem, and I've heard TG acknowledge it, but I'm not sure how they're planning to address it. All I can guarantee is that paying everyone for showing up is obviously not a sustainable solution for the long term. Paying down to 32nd out of 39th place will not help.

When 200 people show up to an event, paying down to 32nd isn't everyone. You've posted this argument like 4 times, and it's flat out wrong. If a tournament is going to pay out to the top 32 and 39 people pay out, yes, nearly everyone walks away with something. What happens with 200? Amazingly only 32 get paid now.

[Arzakon]

Hey Brad,

Don't want to make you think I've been ignoring posts recently, just been trying to stay out of the derailed trains and flame wars that have been showing up. But I figure this would probably be the thread to pop up in.

Thanks for the apology, not sure it was needed, I haven't remembered anything you said that I would take offense to, and you'd be hard pressed to find something. As far as being a TG fanboy, they have treated me very well thus far, and I don't just mean in tournament payouts. Spoils in Atlanta has grown from 4 people showing up to a beta $1K into 2 stores running IQs and 20+ players over the past 2 months. Getting that ball rolling was incredibly easy, my contacts with the company regularly check in with me and make sure everything is ok with me, and offer anything they can do to help me spread the game more. They've been taking care of me and I'm just head judge for The Spoils at one of the stores, not even a store employee. There are of course things I would like to see happen faster. I'm a compulsive planner, and want to have all my ducks in a row and everything announced before I plan to travel to an event, but I'm willing to give them some leeway in their first round of doing this.

As far as payouts go, I don't mind the current structure. It will fit much better when Spoils is pulling 128-256 per tournament rather than 32-64. By Indy time paying down to T32 will look pretty good to most of the players. I think the most you can scavenge from the current 5K structure is $800-$1200 from 9-32, and thats only $100-200 divided per slot in Top 8. Don't get me wrong, the only reason The Spoils pulled me in was because it was +EV to play combined with the fun factor. I am as motivated by the money as you, but $100-$200 isnt going to make me any more interested in spending $300-500 on plane tickets + hotel to a single $5K event. I personally don't think they will pull a lot of players from the outside with single $5Ks, no matter the payout structure. The money just isn't there. Double $5Ks and $10Ks are going to be near the threshold for me to travel outside of the southeast for money purposes. Any payout lower than that and it will have to be just to be there for team support and hanging out. New York for me this weekend is more about meeting more of the guys from Strike, hanging out with bic, and passing Alex's STE point total

As far as constructed, of course there is a narrow meta, the set is 220 cards. Go build a balanced and diverse meta from 220 cards in any magic base set, and still keep your draft/sealed play quality. I'd be hard pressed to from what I remember of magic, Alpha-5th/Ice Age/Mirage. This is why a majority of the money events are limited. I'm sure we will see a little shift as more sets come out. And I can't possibly discuss Pogo Bear any more. Everyone going to New York: Please play Mono Gear. That is all.

I think you are getting bored with the narrow constructed metagame, and frustrated there isn't a big event close-by to refresh you until pre-release. I understand, there hasn't been anything bigger than a $1K in Atlanta, I judge everything else, and constructed was never my game anyways. I hope you can survive the week and a half till pre-release and then the few months till SDCC, Indy, and PAX. We've been playing with mostly the same 200-220 cards since last August, you'll be fine when you get that new card infusion.

Best of luck out in Seattle,

Thomas

[SaintFuse]

I 100% agree with what Arzakon said in regards to a limited card pool.

There is going to be a defined metagame when there is only a small card pool like the one we see in the spoils. You can not make a hugely open metagame when there is such a limit to what you can do.

With a new set on the way, just like always, the next set will add so many more options to current decks and old decks that the metagame should expan quite a bit.

Its that time in a CCG/TCG that your burnt out and you need something else to happen, that what the new set is for

[CodyD1024]

I know I am not a "big name"on these forums, or in the tournament scene, really anywhere for that matter. However, I have to commend you on making your apology public.

I feel the reason everyone has gotten heated about certain topics is because everyone wants to see this card game and company survive. This card game is too good to see it die out like so many others.

I hope You will continue to give this company your support, whether you agree with some of their policies or not.

-Cody

[kcfin]

Well its kind of hard to make a full opinion on the game yet, it was just released not that long ago. When you compare competitive level of The Spoils with MTG, thats like comparing a minnow to a Trout. MTG has been out for years and has such a huge card pool that there are tons of options. With Spoils there is currently only a 220 card pool and whatever you can find from there. With any new game the first set should be balanced and create a semi dull type of metagame, but there isn't much to work with. When new sets start getting released there will be more and more tricks available and start creating a true metagame to worry about, but that probably won't be until the 3rd set is released. With the game being so young there aren't many true pros that know every little trick inside and out so its not that competitive yet, give it time and watch the true players emerge and evolve as the game does. As to the prize structure goes, this stuff was basically set up before tournaments were ran so they had no idea exactly what to expect. What this game has that others lack is more large scale local events. In previous games that I had played I would have had to travel at least 4 hours to play in anything top level, but with spoils I've had the WCC and the Invitational in my town. With the setup that has players don't have to spend a ton of money traveling to play in events and then you can still walk away with money. If there are enough events in your area you can save up prize money to pay for your trips to really big events such as Gen Con Indy. Plus the game isn't all about the money, sure it is a nice bonus, but playing a game just to win money is a little blah to me. I ended up involved in The Spoils because it was a fun game during beta, and had a new game appeal with a company that truly backed its product. I didn't even know about the prize money situation until I checked into the site and boards which was like 2 weeks after I started playing and fell in love with the game. Granted every game has those players that do what they can to be the best and just try to win money, and I'm sorry to say but those people tend to be people that piss a lot of players off because they are so focused on winning.

I have a player who plays Vs at that level around here and he will do whatever he wants to do at our shops local hobby events even if it means exploiting a ruling in his favor over some player that plays for fun. I'm not saying its wrong to do stuff like that, I'm just saying that you should know your competition and how to act. If you play a game against someone in your area that you know is a good player and wants to win, sure play very competitively, but if you play against someone who you know is just there to play and have fun, don't ruin the situation by being stupid, just sit back and relax some and you play instead of being focused on everything.

All I'm saying is that with this game so young there isn't a whole lot to expect of it yet and that people need to learn that winning isn't everything all the time.

[turning_of_the_tide]

First off Brad let me say thank you. I also would like to apologize as although I have attempted a civil and nuetral out look it has been skewed as of late.

To speak on the payout. I have two opinions here which vary over time. At this moment since my team consitantly makes t8 and of course I want more money there it would be in my benefit for them to clump it. This is the deciding factor (except for the family event) that kept me from NY. I am a college student at a Big Ten school...I pay for alot of my schooling and to go to an event that has almost no chance of return is not something I can afford. At the same time however when this game gains 100-200 people per event the 50$ seems all but fair prize structure. You have to look at this as a way to break even until you get on the boat. Because honestly even if you win a 5k after travel expenses and such its not a whole lot of money....The boat is however where everyone will be meking not only money but a name for themselves, the truly good players will have emerged by then and a more wide open meta will be present.

Great things need time and we have to give TG time to get shit in order. I am not saying I am happy with some of the way things are done but honestly its only timing I have had a real issue with so far. I would like to know events now for this summer so I can plan and make arrangements with my tema as to who is going.....but I also understand that TG cannot release this info yet. I just hope this setback and the others you described do not deter you from playing this game because once the bugs are worked out I fully believe it will be the best game on the market.

I also started in this game for the money when I procrastinated and signed up for my Gen Con events last second and all the M:tG good tourneys were fulll. I saya nice bright 2.5k and was figuring even if the game sucked the money shot was worth it...events were cheap and that cause me to get on these boards. The month leading up to Gen Con had me so excited for this game...I was playing the game with the demo cards before Gen Con even. Once I got there and realized I was pretty decent at this gamne and made my travel expenses plus some back I pursued it further. I had a blast and felt finally like this was my game. I came home and with no retailer support worked with Scott directly to get Open Beta kits here. This is where the company is so great. I could not contact any other Lead, Head figure in any other game and get free produuct sent to me on my word that I would use it for tournements much less even get a response in most cases. This turned me onto the game even more. I am now hooked and hold my local events regularly while still attending Cons when the budget allows. What I am trying to say is the game started out great and although there is some doubt, this game will be great to many people have put thier time (and a hell of alot of it) and money (money they may not even really care to spend) into this game including myself and most of this community.

Give them til the boat to get everything in smoothe operations that is one year and if you ares till not happy quit playing. Because the boat is my main concern and if that is a flop I think they are going to lose more than just you Brad. Lets give TG the time they need and sit back and enjoy the ride. Things will work themselves out and things are getting better everyday.

-Ryan

[Derek Hail]

Brad , you may be my favorite spoils player after this post.

I totally agree, giving 32nd place 50 dollars is an absolute joke. A poker tournament payout structure is much more appealing for people who expect to win tournaments.

Unfortunately, most people don't expect to win tournaments because they are not competitive enough or they are "still learning." Also, building up a competitive playing field is great, but the unfortunate truth is, like in magic, a lot of the players are casual and will never consider trying to win tournaments. So, The Spoils appears to be catering to the masses.

However, the fact they are catering to the masses is a little funny considering they are trying to make the ultimate tournament card game. If that is their true goal, and not just a tagline, they should be catering to help create big payouts for top players because after all, poker got big because of a big payout to an amateur poker player.

Newspapers don't talk about 50 dollars to 32nd. Blogs, websites, and internet news sources don't care that you made 100 bucks to take yourself out to dinner. They want to see the underdog get a new car, a new house, a new life.

While I don't expect The Spoils to raise their payout at this stage in the game, they should most definitely be focusing on large payouts to the top players, that way when a top player goes home and brags "hey i jut won 10 grand playing a card game" all of his friends will think its possible . Newspapers will write about how this 18 year old kid won 10 grand in a card tournament. etc.

Before I ramble on too much, you should be allowed to speak your mind. if it is insulting to hear, it is probably true.