Banker/Arcanist Concept Part II

[Fujisawa]

Based on the previous concept I had, I've been staring at a new build that I'll be testing. If others would like to pitch in their thoughts, that'd be greatly appreciated.

I'll explain why I chose certain cards too.

Characters (30)
3 Flabbergasting Philosopher (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Flabbergasting Philosopher.full.jpg) 6GG/F4GG
4 Pilgrimage Auditor (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Pilgrimage Auditor.full.jpg) 3G
4 Property Condemner (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Property Condemner.full.jpg) 4GG/F2GG
4 Defiler of Innocence (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Defiler of Innocence.full.jpg) 2OOOO
3 High-Priest of Thabbash (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/High-Priest of Thabbash.full.jpg) 4OOO
4 Lingamite Torture Monk (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Lingamite Torture Monk.full.jpg) 2OO/R2OO
4 The Abominable Hamster (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/The Abominable Hamster.full.jpg) 5O*5O's
4 Wrinkly Rabbit (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Wrinkly Rabbit.full.jpg) 6O*XO's

Tactics (28)
4 Essence of Greed (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Essence of Greed.full.jpg) 1GG
4 Inconvenient Roadblock (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Inconvenient Roadblock.full.jpg) 3G/F1G
4 Subordinate Demotivation (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Subordinate Demotivation.full.jpg) 3G
4 Day of the Tentacle (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Day of the Tentacle.full.jpg) 0O
4 Encumber (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Encumber.full.jpg) 4O/R2O
4 Evanesce (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Evanesce.full.jpg) 3OO/F1OO
4 Karmic Cake (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Karmic Cake.full.jpg) 2G/R2G

Resources (17)
Greed 2 (starting)
Obsession 11
Neurosis (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Neurosis.full.jpg) 4

Considering:
Treasure Brokerage (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Treasure Brokerage.full.jpg)

[Fujisawa]

Character base: Hamster and Rabbit are the kill conditions. High threshold of Obsession fuels the Rabbit quite nicely. Hamster is the back up or bait for removal.

The Monk is for protection on the kill conditions. The Recur is helpful as it provides just another way to protect them. Encumber and Evanesce are used for protection if needed but would be used on opponents.

High-Priest is a no brainer. Having a good number of tactics or characters keeps certain key cards off, or at least I'd hope so. I'm debating if the Brokerage would be better to use than Karmic for synergy with the priest (additional location hate).

Tactics base: 2 types of cards that net me another card. I'm iffy of Karmic for Brokerage for the reason above but Karmics are great for a turn 0 play. And the Recur makes it more possible for me to fish for that high threshold I'd need for the rabbit.

Encumber and Evanesce are used in conjuction with Tentacle and Defiler. Removing those threats from their hands are always a plus.

It has occurred to me that I won't be able to play Tentacle on turn 0 though to stop a Adriel if Gideon hits the table (or vice vera).

Subordinate lets me have fun with Warlord if I do see Adriel or Gideon dropped.

Overall, I like the plays I can throw down using Tentacles/Encumber's Recur, Defiler, etc. Keeping my opponent off pace and key cards seem like hot cakes.

Resource Count: I don't have a thresh higher than 2 greeds. Start off with those and start dropping obessions/neurosis like candy! Unless someone can provide valid reason to split greed and obsession.

Strategy: The idea is to wall up taking minimal damage from early swingers. Can use Flabber and Essence Greeds to boost back up. Once threshhold is met and resource count available, the deck starts dropping hamsters and rabbits and walls up to protect them. Last resort is to bounce them back and delay your turn.

With dropping Tentacles and Defilers, the pace would be offset enough that if I have to wait another turn, my opponent wastes so many resources getting key cards back in I can send rabbits in all day.

I haven't tested this build yet as I just rethought this deck today. I might be a little high on resource count with all the flip I have but I wanted to be sure that if my rabbit can attack, it attacks hard and can live through most direct damage (maximum 20 life? Realistically 8-10?).

Thoughts welcome!

[Furtive Investor]

Interesting. I look forward to hearing the results of testing.

I'll bet you can find a better card than Essence of Greed for that slot. If it is just for the influence gain - how about Frisky Fortuneteller? At least you get one shot to chump block with the life gain?

You might consider more removal in lieu of Inconvenient Roadblock (just not as good as ol' Limited Liability). Crushing Usury or Extravangant Contusion come to mind. I understand that you are just stalling to get to your bigger threshold killers, but few decks can have "too much" removal. Roadblock is one battle (one turn delay, at best). Removal spares you (from that character) for up to two turns. And that's assuming opponent has a way to get it out of their discard pile and play it again.

Personally, I'm not a fan of Day of Tentacle. I just don't like giving an opponent resources. I can see it maybe working in Big Constructed (all sets) with Land Shark and Ritual of Knob and Pull, but . . .

[Fujisawa]

Essence of Greed: The use of it was for the influence yes and the alternative to draw for 1. Rather cheap for another card if need be. Otherwise, yes, the 4 influence is awesome. Oddly, I had Frisky in here first (check the first idea for this concept). Maybe I can toss her back in and try it out.

Crushing Ursury: I was looking into Crushing Usury but it comes down to self-replacement for cost. So it's a battle between stopping damage and netting a card versus removal at cost of influence or expensive cost to remove. I'll try them out and see what happens.

Day of the Tentacle: Yeah, this was iffy for me, I can find something else to fit. I liked the fun you can have with it to check their hand to see what's coming and if they have a cute character, now they gotta use it as a resource.

It sucks to give them more resources but I get to check their hand and drop a character. Here comes testing hopefully!

Thank you for the post, I hope to hear more critism!

[thegnomishone]

Looking at this build, I like it a lot, with a couple of exceptions.

First, I think you're playing too many resources. With the Karmic Cake you don't need to devote 15 in-deck slots to Arcanist thresh. Wrinkly Rabbit is your only Thresh matters card, and he only needs 4 or 5 to be devastating, everything else is just win more. I'd lose 4 resources out of the deck, run 4 Neurosis, 7 Obsession, maybe even less.

Second, I don't like Essence of Greed. You can only really hope to draw 1 before you would die to Warlord, and any removal would be better in the slot. Try Extravagant Contusion, it's great with Subordinate Demotivation, because you can Contusion low-costers out of the way then use the SD to gain resource advantage by killing their big characters.

Third, why no Caboodling Gladhander? He is unconditional hard removal that just gives them life, which is largely irrelevant. His cost is also amazing. It's like playing a 3/4/3 for 4 that says draw a card and playing an Irresistible Bribe, albeit at character (rather than tactic) speed.

Fourth, with no items or locations in deck, High Priest of Thabbash may not be good enough. Some of the best cards in Seed are items and/or locations (Wand of Posession, Watchtower, Mighty Ballista). This will need some testing, and there are definitely items and locations you could play to great effect in this deck. The idea of discarding a Theocratic Senate of Marduun to the High Priest to counter a Ballista, then Architectural Restitutioning it back out is sexy.

Fifth, what is the point of the Lingamite Torture monk in this deck? Is he just for the Property Condemners? Wouldn't you be better off with Ensorcelled Familiars, even if you're just pitching them to the High Priest?

Also, as a final note, I like Day of the Tentacle a LOT in Seed only. As was pointed out elsewhere on the boards, most of the Warlord builds play Phalludrix, and that hurts Encumber a LOT. Day of the Tentacle gives you a way to permanently dispose of those pesky locations that make the Warlord deck so devastating.

[Fujisawa]

Out of order but yeah. :)


Warlord builds play Phalludrix, and that hurts Encumber a LOT.

It does hurt Encumber if the original target of Encumber is not who Phalludrix is attached to. Unless Warlord will play it and not attach it to someone? So yeah, when I drop Encumber, it'd be on who had Phalludrix attached, drop Day of the Tentacle, pay 2 for Encumber's recur.



what is the point of the Lingamite Torture monk in this deck?

I pointed this out under The Monk in post two. I probably should've made it more clear. I like the monk for the cheap cost and the ability to bounce my guys back if something is threatening it.

Example: I have a rabbit and hamster in play. Warlord decides to Blazing Shriever my rabbit, react with the Monk, rabbit is in my hand. Then Warlord decides to Ballista the Hamster for 5, great, I pay two to activate Monk again from the discard pile and save the hamster.

I saved two kill cards, gave 5 damage to the ballista, and he wasted a shriever. From 1 monk.

And if they decide to take out the Monk himself? Great! They wasted removal on a 1/1/3 that I can still use from the discard pile.



with no items or locations in deck

I can't agree with you more. That right there is why I was looking into Treasure Brokerage instead of Karmic Cake. And it would be reason I would look into Scintillating Chamber Pot or another useful item. Maybe with the removal of some resources I can look into this.

Having more will definitely help synergize with the High-Priest.



I think you're playing too many resources.

I can see this. With Karmic Cake, I could easily pull out 2 resources from 1 Karmic. I chose 11 Obsession and 4 Neurosis to assure at least a 20% of drawing 1 resource in my opening hand. Maybe 2. Drawing into Karmic + 2 resources opening hand assures I hit that devastating thresh for the cuddly critters quickly. Additional resources/flips help assure I can be a threat with multiple cards.

Dropping down to 7 Obsession and 4 Neurosis gives me a 15% chance. I liked the chance of 1 in 5 cards better. I'll definitely give it a try at 7 though. If I do that, I totally have room for more items and/or locations for High-Priest.



I don't like Essence of Greed

It was a tough call on this call. I love what it could do. Gaining +4 influence isn't anything scoff at. Paying 1 to draw a card? Better than paying 3.

In the end, yes, I could see removal going there instead. I'll give it a shot both ways during testing and see how it pans out.



why no Caboodling Gladhander?

I need help with this guy. I need to be sold on him. I get his usage: pay 7, drop a 3/4/3 and murder a guy at the expense of opponent influence gain.

Other than removal and character in one card, I couldn't justify paying 7 for that. I could put it in as another form of removal. Say I played him and it's turn 5. Surely I'll have 7 resources realistically. I drop Caboodling and now I'm sitting on 2 available resources tops (assuming I had 9 in play).

For the price of giving my opponent influence and me gaining a +1 to character advantage, is that enough reason run this guy? This would be versus adding another form of cheap removal.

I'll give him a fair shot though and try it out. :)

Investor and gnomeish, I'll try out your suggestions tonight! See how it works out and I'll let you know the results over the weekend. I'm sure if more criticism comes we can tweak this out.

[thegnomishone]

I need help with this guy. I need to be sold on him.

So, Caboodling Gladhander is a straight house in control. The real benefit of him is that he is a cardslot that serves as both removal and win condition. The problem with Seed control is the lack of workable win conditions, so you need things that can be both utility and win you the game. The best examples I can think of are the Caboodling Gladhander and Flabbergasting Philosopher. Both have solid effects, both create 3 Str dudes that can swing into your opponent's empty board.


Paying 1 to draw a card? Better than paying 3.


Except that you're paying 4 to draw a card. You're paying 1, plus the cost of a card, which is (theoretically) 3.


I would look into Scintillating Chamber Pot or another useful item.

While Chamber Pot isn't bad, you're playing the thresh to play the Wand of Posession. Against Warlord it's not much but High Priest bait for counter-item, but against most other decks it's either an answer to their Wand or it's a win condition.


So yeah, when I drop Encumber, it'd be on who had Phalludrix attached

The problem here is the ability to tactic-speed move Phalludrix. If I'm playing warlord and I see any Obsession on my opponent's side of the table, I'll always keep up the resources to move Phalludrix if necessary.

[Fujisawa]

The problem here is the ability to tactic-speed move Phalludrix. If I'm playing warlord and I see any Obsession on my opponent's side of the table, I'll always keep up the resources to move Phalludrix if necessary.

Sonova!!!! I knew I forgot something about Phalludrix. Point taken. :)

As for the rest, I'll drop it all and try out several things this weekend.

Essence of Greed: Yeah I understand it's technically 4 since it's a card itself but the utility of it is what I like. Again, will try out other methods.

[Fujisawa]

Did testing against a mono-Warlord build. I cloned the deck Hordak used.

Changes made:
-3 Obsession
-4 Inconvenient Roadblock
-4 Essence of Greed
+4 Extravagant Contusion
+4 Scintillating Chamber Pot (Needed for High-Priest)
+3 Cryptic Athenaeum (Needed for High-Priest)

Opening hands, going first: Mulliganed hard for at least 1-2 resources or Karmic Cake. And tried to get a Day of the Tentacle or Defiler.

Going second: Worried more for resources/Karmic and control pieces.

Opening plays were simple, usually drop some form of Karmic (if turn 0) or drop pot or defensive card.

Early game control didn't seem bad at all. Even if he dropped Adriel + Gideon, I still was able to Contusion then Subordinate Demotivation. Hitting an early Encumber recur + Defiler + Tentacle happened once and really helped out during the early game.

Mid game, Warlord was great about keeping threats out. The problem I had was not having more than enough resources to be threatening. I'd usually have 2 greed, 3 obession (mix in 1-2 Neurosis) then 1-2 flips. Having to deal with 1-2 Robusticals, Drill Garrison, and Gideon didn't help out and used a lot of resources trying not to take all that damage (Encumber, Property, Pots on Robusticals).

Late game, if I didn't have 5+ obsession thresh, I didn't have enough threat. I don't have enough draw power through cards to have multiple tools in my hand. Usually 1-2 between hand and flips by this time. Hand usually holding 1 life characters.

Overall, this deck needs to be able to deal with multiple threats at once and make Warlord think hard about dropping certain characters. This deck needs work.

Honorable Mention: Lingamite Torture Monk is a hero. The utility of him protecting cards being threatened is great. Just another way to protect.

Extravagant Contusion is an add in now. 1-2 cost removal for big threats, yeah awesome.

Bad is bad: High-Priest is a great though. He doesn't live long enough to stop anything. Usually when he hits play, he's auto-Noble Sacrificed or some type of removal. It's great he baits cards like that but he's not really that helpful.

Don't Know Club: Scintillating Chamber Pot was something I tossed in to help the Priest and also to slow down heavy hitters. It did great actually but I don't know if it warrants a stay. It did help the longevity of my stay.

Next Test: I'll try the Caboodles. More removal definitely does not hurt. His 7 cost might though. To pay 7 on my turn for removal + creature leaves me vulnerable on their turn. Also might add in the Essence of Greeds again because that +4 influence could help me stall out.

I'll do some tweaks this weak and report up. Any thoughts or considerations?

**Changed "can" to "try". Sounds different is I say "I'll try" versus "I'll can".

[captiantiny]

Just remember about the Priest, that if goes out something else will be Nobled

[Furtive Investor]

Silly thought. What if you started one obsession and then used recur of Karmic Cake to get the 2nd Greed?

Seems like your Purple stuff would be available sooner and you still would have Subordinate Demotivation and Chamber Pot. Other two thres Banker cards could wait.

[Fujisawa]

Huh... could prove interesting. Maybe even toss in an Exploitation or two and Karmic those.

I'll try it definitely.

[Furtive Investor]

Huh... could prove interesting. Maybe even toss in an Exploitation or two and Karmic those.

I'll try it definitely.

I understand the temptation, but what purpose would Exploitation truly serve in this deck? You don't have anything more than two thres Banker - and your win conditions rely on higher Arcanist thres.

Use the first play of Karmic Cake for Neurosis, obviously. Then recur it for either the 2nd Greed or Obsession (staple), depending on what is going on in the match to that point. So, if you can Karmic Cake on turn O, then on your 2nd turn, you have either combo of threshold (2G-3O or 1G-4O). Hello, Defiler! Welcome to the Cryptic Atheneum!

In the end, I think the flexibility is worth it - assuming you can Cake and recur in your first couple turns, of course. If the opponent shows aggro, perhaps go 2nd Greed first; if you are facing control, maybe get those Purple-People eaters in earlier.

The trade-off (speaking to audience here, as I'm sure it is obvious to a cerebral player like yourself, Fujisawa-San) is the delay in your two thres Banker cards hitting the table. Can Philosopher wait (expensive as face-down, but handy)? Same with Extravagant Contusion (yeah, it is great with Sub Demotivate), Property Condemner and Caboodling Gladhandler (I concur with thegnomishone; try to get it in the deck somehow).

If no Caboodling, I might be tempted to drop down to one thres Banker instead. Add some combo of Frisky Fortuneteller, Mutineer's Hiatus, Crushing Usury, Purifying Priest or Treasury Brokerage in place of the two thres banker cards. Tough call, but might get you to win conditions faster. Hmm . . .

Forgive the random musings of a below-average player (Lioge owes me a pint if I ever get through a match without a play error. I might never collect. But that won't shut me up!).

More skilled players will undoubtedly correct my faults in logic (either in these forums or across the table at a tourney!)

I look forward to hearing about results and THANK YOU for keeping these types of discussions alive online. Our Global Meta can only be improved by it

[Fujisawa]

Aye! I should've followed up on this post. I'll blame work for not allowing me to finish my thoughts. :)

The reason I'd throw in Exploitation is to kind of redo some structure for the adding of Balthasaar. I noticed that this deck didn't get to draw as much as I'd've liked so adding Bathasaar (3 thresh) would warrant me running an Exploitation to have that third thresh. :)

Complete thoughts help, my bust on that one.

And everything you said in your follow up post makes lively sense (especially the pint part)! Caboodling is being added to the build to try for this week's testing. I'll be trying out a quirky Banker/Gearsmith build a buddy of mine and I are working on.

Some follow up questions:

Mutineer's Hiatus - I really like this card for the potential and cheapness. Is this one of those poor man's Noble Sacrifices? (yeah, poor man in banker, oxymoron FTW?)

Foolhardy Desperado - I've noticed that Warlord doesn't fair well against Covert with hefty bums. 3/4/2 for 3 definitely keeps Watchtower off and an early (turn 1 or 2) Blazing Shriever. Is this something to look into?

[Furtive Investor]

RE: Exploitation - Hmm...wouldn't that delay your Arcanist high Thres stuff even longer? Seems like it would start to become a totally different deck if you go down that road. Not that there is anything wrong with that ;-)

RE: Mutineer's Hiatus - I wouldn't compare it to Noble Sacrifice (like your Torture Monk discussion above, which was spot on, IMO). No, it's just a way to draw cards when characters are dying anyway. Great response to many of the removal tricks your opponent plays.

RE: Foolhardy Desperado - true enough, covert rocks against Mono-Warlord. But generally they have won before big covert beaters (Wrinkly Wabbit, Sequestered Hellion, Hamsters, or a bunch of Rogue characters) have a chance to make much of a difference. And if Gideon still happens to be in play, then Fool Desp is probably a losing race. Might make sense with a Gearsmith splash (for Runic Reinforcement and other pump the strength tricks), but that would be a different deck, wouldn't it?

[thegnomishone]

If you're considering going to 3 thresh, I will strongly recommend Theocratic Senate of Marduun and Architectural Restitution. Those two cards are absolutely devastating, used properly.

[Fujisawa]

RE:RE: Mutineer's Hiatus; it's why I called it the poor man's version of it. Doesn't have the utility to destroy their stuff but at least it's a reactionary tool that draws 2 for cheap. Or in desperation to dig.

I'll be honest, this deck could take on an entire new form itself and I wouldn't be mad about it. The thing about starting 1G/1O and using a karmic to fish up a Greed was something I liked for an idea. Instead of a basic greed, I'd fish up that Exploitation. That way I could drop Balthasaar quickly.

It wouldn't slow the process down much; it does enhance my ability to draw into stuff faster. More Karmic, more draw, keep more tools, try to keep my opponent more off their game.

Hmm... Maybe an Update III will have to do. lol

As for the Banker/Gearsmith, I'll see about getting a list up for that. It's quite silly; my buddy came up with it. I got to swing in with a Fool + Insanity Pepper followed by another Fool + Insanity Pepper + Runic Reinforcement then popped the first pepper for the +3 str and restore and attacked again.

Was pretty fun. Anywho, might do a rebuild on this idea if I can't get any good results with the testing. I'll keep it coming.

[Furtive Investor]

...I got to swing in with a Fool + Insanity Pepper followed by another Fool + Insanity Pepper + Runic Reinforcement then popped the first pepper for the +3 str and restore and attacked again...

For you kids watching at home, THIS is the reason we always recommend keeping some form of removal available in your hand - with sufficient resources to play it. :D

[Fujisawa]

^ HA Ain't that the truth!

[brynsul]

deck looks pretty awesome fuji, good all around choices, no glaring weaknesses, although I do wonder why you arent playing any of the awesome banker locations?

[Fujisawa]

deck looks pretty awesome fuji, good all around choices, no glaring weaknesses, although I do wonder why you arent playing any of the awesome banker locations?

I'm glad you asked. I've been meaning to do a follow up post about the testing with this deck.

No Banker locations because I needed more utility from other cards in a sense. However, this was only a first of many models of this deck.

In the world of being perfect, this deck dominates what it opposes. Controlling the board and letting your vermin run rampantly on your opponent's faction is hilariously awesome!

Being that this isn't perfect, it has the biggest flaw of keeping pace. It is awesome to be able to control the field with those bounces and slow your opponent's roll but not drawing into multiple kills or methods to deal with being out paced hurt this deck.

Playing against a basic Warlord build, if I didn't keep pace with that turn 1 Gideon + Adriel, I was in a world of hurt. Or if he popped out a Drill Garrison or even Robustical. Too difficult for this deck to keep pace.

When the deck did draw into it's perfection, seeing a rabbit hit for 7-9 DMG followed by a hamster made quick work of Warlord (who doesn't like covert very much).

The consistency was where I wanted it to be so I decided to abandon this concept for the time. If I can beef up the consistency to keep pace with beats, this idea is lovely!

In the mean time, I'm working on a deck called Antonio Banderas (NONONO too sexy, Antonio, too sexxxy!). After some more soul devouring testing, I'll post it up for criticism. :)