Alternatives to Warlord for SEED Constructed

[Furtive Investor]

Good morning, Lab Rats!
(1000 quatlus to the first person to ID the reference without Googling it)

Mono-warlord in SEED clearly rocks!! Adriel, Gideon, Watchtower (esp vs SIN decks), Dragon Archer, Elzbeth, Drill Garrison, Noble Sacrifice and don't forget the non-rare "Killer B's" (Blowtorch,Badass and Bowman). Ouch!

Add in a 2nd trade, and the news gets even worse (Bowman with Fiscal Intercessor; Peppering Gideon - "That's two for flinching!"):eek:

As State Qualifiers ramp-up; I don't want Constructed to be reduced to a bunch of slight variations on aggro Warlord decks. So, the purpose of this thread is to discuss alternatives - in hopes of keeping the metagame rich and varied (one of many great things about this game!)

I'll kick it off. What do you think of this?
Faction - Drowned Catacombs (for threat of Covert) or Tourney
Starting Resources - 1 Deception, 1 Elitism
Characters:

Cloaked Weaponmaster (4)
Cowering Golem (4)
Multi-Attachment Man (4)
Oddment Collector (4)
Slinking Bandido (4)
Swollen Ostrich (4)

Items:

Bland Pepper (4) - cheap, RFG to pump the OC's
Cashier's Window (2)
Hot Pepper (4)
Muddle Bugs (4) - for removal, and to pump OC's
Pepper of Insanity (3)
Runic Armor (4)
Unbearably Heavy Shoes of Teleportation (4) - flip-up, and they look great on Cowering Golem;)

Tactics:

Brilliant Insight (4) - resource acceleration
Essence of Elitism (4) - to return items from discard
Roulette Wheel of Doom (4)
Strangulate (4)

Other Resources:

Arrogance (4)
Treachery (4)

Is there any hope for this concept or should I just go back to the drawing board?

[Furtive Investor]

Here are some links to other SEED only decks:
Mono Warlord (http://www.thespoils.com/spoils/showthread.php?t=6556)
Mono-Elitism (http://www.thespoils.com/spoils/showthread.php?t=7081) (thanks, Lioge!)
Arcanist Banker (http://www.thespoils.com/spoils/showthread.php?t=7514)

[bigwillbigwill]

The best alternative to warlord in seed constructed is SEED sealed

[bic]

Its almost impossible to beat Seed only Warlord Aggro in Constructed.

[Lioge]

Rogue/Greed Control LINK (http://www.thespoils.com/spoils/showthread.php?p=78681#post78681)

See, now you're making me pull all the shots and list yet another deck...

[waiya]

one big problem

Muddle Bugs (4)

if you play this it prevents you from playing

# Oddment Collector (4) dead as soon as he hits play
# Slinking Bandido (4) dead after second hit


may want to rethink this or be prepare to destroy your own cards to get them out.

[Hans]

I am sorry to correct you, but...

No, that is not how Muddle Bugs work. It just checks for destruction of a character after being used upon it.

No, Mono Warlord is not the best deck in Seed constructed. You need to try harder to beat it.

Have fun :D

[jedibcg]

Hans is right about the muddle bugs. I dunno about the SEED constructed. I haven't built a SEED only deck.

[Lioge]

No, Mono Warlord is not the best deck in Seed constructed. You need to try harder to beat it.

Have fun :D

Hans, to what decklist are you referring? If you don't want to post a decklist, can you at least hint to a build by telling us the trades you consider required for "the best deck in the format"?

[waiya]

sorry brain fart I was thinking of the the combo I have been useing lately and got mixed up.


domain of depravity + muddle bugs = really quick and nasty death all over the place.

[bic]

No, Mono Warlord is not the best deck in Seed constructed. You need to try harder to beat it.
Have fun :D

I stand corrected.

[Fujisawa]

For SEED only, it feels that most of the board is pretty much "WARLORD OR DIE!" when it comes to constructed. Even here, it's being said that pretty much 2 locations can effectively disable or beat any other faction unless they splash Warlord for those same locations. (http://www.thespoils.com/spoils/showthread.php?p=79486#post79486)

I'm sure it doesn't help that Warlord has 5 methods of doing something to a location with Banker following with 2 and Obsession having 1.

Others say that there are better deck concepts out there but it feels like everyone is being all super secret tech out there. (http://www.thespoils.com/spoils/showpost.php?p=79272&postcount=7) Even the Deck Building forums seem kind of like an old western town with dust balls roaming.

Would it be safer to wait till post Gencon (SEED II) for more SEED competitive constructed decks that aren't Warlord?

[Hordak]

For SEED only, it feels that most of the board is pretty much "WARLORD OR DIE!" when it comes to constructed. Even here, it's being said that pretty much 2 locations can effectively disable or beat any other faction unless they splash Warlord for those same locations. (http://www.thespoils.com/spoils/showthread.php?p=79486#post79486)

I'm sure it doesn't help that Warlord has 5 methods of doing something to a location with Banker following with 2 and Obsession having 1.

Others say that there are better deck concepts out there but it feels like everyone is being all super secret tech out there. (http://www.thespoils.com/spoils/showpost.php?p=79272&postcount=7) Even the Deck Building forums seem kind of like an old western town with dust balls roaming.

Would it be safer to wait till post Gencon (SEED II) for more SEED competitive constructed decks that aren't Warlord?

Now that we know that Nationals will be Open constructed, it seems silly for people to play their Seed only decks so close to the chest. I'm skeptical about Hans' statement and unless he produces the better list of which he speaks, I'll remain skeptical :)

[Century]

Others say that there are better deck concepts out there but it feels like everyone is being all super secret tech out there.

Unfortunately, all the self-proclaimed good players on this forum keep their best decks secret. Mind you, they often show up to big events with the same deck that everyone else is playing saying it's not the right time to unleash their beast.

I think they should nut up, or shut up.

[Oy_mate]

I would suggest looking towards elitism/rouge for the answers to warlord in Seed. Plus you don't need to have location removal, you can attack locations as if they were factions which sometimes might be worth doing.

[thegnomishone]

Elitism/Rogue has no answers for locations. This is, at best, problematic and at worst it's utterly devastating. Having played in a meta that was heavy on Warlord, you have to deal with the Ballista, or you lose... it's like someone having a runic cannon in Part 1 limited. If they play it correctly, there's nothing you can do to get out from under it.

[Sabash]

Elitism/Rogue has no answers for locations.

Attack them?

[thegnomishone]

Surprisingly ineffective against a Warlord deck.

[Fujisawa]

Attack them?

The problem here is pacing and variables. Yeah, attack them, destroy that location. Done. Easy. Move on.

10 life on that location? I just spent a lot of effort, turns, and resources to take a 2 cost, 10 life location. That's 10 life that could've been taken from the faction influence.

Let's throw in the variable of when I attack, Warlord uses tools to kill my characters. Now I've wasted those resources to attack and now have to rebuild my forces. All for what? 2 damage on the Ballista?

I'd rather have a method of dealing with locations directly, blowing it up entirely, bouncing it, negating its rules box...

If SEED is about location hate (especially to defend against a location heavy Warlord) then you would need to splash Banker/Arcanist/Warlord for that reason.

This is specifically against a meta that's location heavy. Sucks for Rogue and Elitism. :(

[Fujisawa]

I realized I might've said why attacking isn't good but I don't think I went into how you could defend.

If you are determined to play another faction but still have location hate, splashing Warlord for its tools wouldn't be bad. Chain Reaction (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Chain Reaction.full.jpg), Colossal Flattener (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Colossal Flattener.full.jpg), Essence of Rage (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Essence of Rage.full.jpg), Mighty Ballista (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Mighty Ballista.full.jpg), Trebuchet Officer (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Trebuchet Officer.full.jpg), and Virtuous Razer (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Virtuous Razer.full.jpg) are very effective hate against locations. Splashing them into another faction would help boost the defense against them.

Sadly, almost enough to just say "I'ma play Warlord instead." But at least it's a method.

Banker has Property Condemner (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Property Condemner.full.jpg) and Purifying Priest (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Purifying Priest.full.jpg) to deal with locations. Property Condemner is an awesome way to hate locations. 2 flip cost, 2 thresh, and even speed 4? I like it. I like to combo it with Arcanist and in dire situations, bounce it back and throw it back out.

As for the priest, it at least shoots 1 damage to another location. Not purely effective but helps.

Encumber (http://www.spoilsinventory.com/pics/SCL/Encumber.full.jpg) is the only answer for direct location hate for Arcanist. Covert is a great method to hit locations but that does require the character living to attack and using their attack to hit a location instead of faction influence. At least with Encumber, I can bounce that Watchtower or Drill Garrison and drop my 1 lifers without instant decimation.

What does Rogue or Elitism have for direct location hate? I didn't see anything Elitism has. Rogue; you could do trickery and search their deck and discard it. Or rig their top card to the bottom of the deck. It's a method but I don't think it's reliable.

Am I missing options here?

[Furtive Investor]

Well Banker could probably stall out (and draw) Warlord in Seed with:
Walk the Plank
Portly Tradesmau
Theocratic Senate
Architectural Restitution
Pilgrimage Auditor
Property Condemner
Purifying Priest
Chancellor of Reinstatement
Underpaid Ancestor
Flabbergasting Philosopher
and all the targeted character removal:
Subordinate Demotivation
Crushing Usury
Extravangant Contusion

But there isn't much room in the deck for any win condition.

Black Scourge or Avuncular Merlion would likely fall to Noble Sacrifice.

[Hordak]

I got stalled out by the exact deck you're describing by the person describing it :D

[Sabash]

Surprisingly ineffective against a Warlord deck.

I think that's the attitude that is causing everyone to have major problems against warlord. It seems like everyone's in this mindset that they have to be on the defensive when they're going up against warlord. By immediately thinking in defensive terms you've put control of the game into your opponent's hands. Your actions are dictated by the fact that you must react to what your opponent does instead of forcing your opponent to react to what you do.

Take the initiative back. Put mono warlord on the defensive. Hammer away at them until there's nothing left.

Maybe easier said than done, but the first step is to stop thinking that you must have answers for everything mono-warlord does and instead start thinking that mono-warlord must have answers for everything you do.

Am I wrong? Probably. But I feel so right. :)

[Furtive Investor]

Hordak - guilty as charged. I was just hoping that a more-skilled player than myself would give it a try. And you will always be in my Hall of Fame with that artistic use of a Chain Reaction at the end - even if it didn't change the outcome :-)

Sabbash - I agree with your thinking. That's why we are discussing it. But, Mono Warlord in SEED reminds me of Mike Tyson in his prime. Everybody has a plan before that actually get in the ring. As soon as they get in the ring and get hit (with some combo of Gideon, Watchtower, Drill Garrison, etc), the plan falls apart.

[Oy_mate]

Is this (http://www.thespoils.com/spoils/showthread.php?t=6556) the deck you are struggling to beat, if so I am happy to post up a suggestion to get round it. Otherwise any other deck lists of mono-warlord from Seed I am happy to suggest solutions to it.

[thegnomishone]

Yeah, the Greed can stall for a draw, but that's not good enough.

As for attacking and attacking at Warlord, they just make bad combat math. It never feels like a good idea to attack them. Having played an Elitism deck against Warlord, they do have answers for everything you do. Mighty Ballista, Noble Sacrifice, Watchtower, Dragon Archer, Blazing Shriever, Boilstorm, Balking Foecrusher, Adriel, Phalludrix.

Edit: ALL of which are played in most Warlord decks because they're just good cards.

[Weesie]

I'm cross posting this here because I'm having basically the same discussion in another thread.



Also I think people should build and test against the deck I used to take the Rhode Island qualifier. I went undefeated in a field of 15 people and played multiple mono warlord decks and a deck almost identical to JP Control and every game was a walk in the park.

Handy Weirdos (start)
1 Elitism (1 start)
11 Rage (1 start)
4 Violence

4 Gideon, the Ultimate Warrior
4 Adriel, Defender of Marduun
4 Blazing Shriever
4 Cowering Golem
4 Idol Smasher
4 Spitting Sarume
4 Dragon Archer
4 Oddment Collector
4 Tiny Sarume
4 Noble Sacrifice
4 Boilstorm
4 Mighty Ballista
4 Improvised Blowtorch
4 H07 P3pp3r
4 Runic Reinforcement

It has the same tempo and explosive early game as Mono warlord and just as much removal. It also completely stifles tide turning plays. Nothing is more fun then watching your opponent destroy their own Ballista because you bumped your character out of kill range with weirdos or killing their Dragon Archer with Runic Reinforcement or swinging in for a surprise kill after droping a H07 P3pp3r or responding to a Noble Sacrifice with a Noble Sacrifice. It also has a better mid/late game with the board presence that pumpable Oddment Collector's and Cowering Golem's brings to the table. not to mention the item/location tech you would want for other decks in the format.

[thegnomishone]

See, I think a good, solid control deck would be more successful against that build than against mono warlord, but I can see why your build devastates those same mono warlord decks. Really, control decks get to use their Wand of Posession against you, what with the lack of Watchtower.

[Weesie]

See, I think a good, solid control deck would be more successful against that build than against mono warlord, but I can see why your build devastates those same mono warlord decks. Really, control decks get to use their Wand of Posession against you, what with the lack of Watchtower.


I actually like the fact that they waste resources creating and trying to keep out the tokens. Flipping a Spitting Sarume and or dropping a Idol Smasher puts them in a position where they are struggling to make the wand work wile you pound them with your characters. With Watchtower they simply drop it face down and move on to new tactics.

[Hans]

I wont give you the best deck list for mono seed constructed because then you would just complain about that deck´s domination of the format, instead of complaining about mono warlord. In fact a very big part of the fun of tcgs is trying to come up with decks that are better than the former top deck, while still being good against random decks. So i won´t take that fun away from you. I appreciate the fact that you have started a healthy discussion here and i can assure you that multiple decks can be built that beat mono warlord consistently. I will bring them to Gen Con to smash you in case you cant find them until then. :p

Enjoy the Seed!
Hans

[Hordak]

The problem isn't really stopping Mono Warlord, it's stopping everything else AND Mono Warlord.

I respect your ability as a player and a deck builder, but I'm hard pressed to believe that you found the one and only deck that can dominate the Seed only format. The Spoils is well designed and a single dominant deck is unlikely.

[bic]

The problem isn't really stopping Mono Warlord, it's stopping everything else AND Mono Warlord.



In fact a very big part of the fun of tcgs is trying to come up with decks that are better than the former top deck, while still being good against random decks.




I'm hard pressed to believe that you found the one and only deck that can dominate the Seed only format.


i can assure you that multiple decks can be built that beat mono warlord consistently. I will bring them to Gen Con to smash you in case you cant find them until then. :p
Hans

Asked and answered?

[Hordak]

Nice selective quoting... he said he has a deck that would "dominate the format".

[Furtive Investor]

When quoting Hordak, I prefer to start the quote immediately after any negation :)