Wow...talk about slipping through the cracks...

[joshlytle]

Hey everyone,

So I have an embarrasing confession to make: I've forgotten how we were supposed to handle one particular case in the rules. I don't doubt we had a plan a year or two ago but for the life of me I can't seem to remember what it was.

The issue is about Duplicate. Right now, it seems that it's really tough to figure out what happens when you play 2 Voidal Replications in a row. Some people have suggested that the game ends in a draw, but that's not what happens.

I can easily fix the rules to make this work, but what I want help on is figuring out if we ever came to an official ruling on this in the forums. Can anyone find a post by me that explains exactly how to handle this case? I'd hate to contradict my younger self. ;-)

[tgrtrax]

the thread

http://www.thespoils.com/spoils/showthread.php?t=6005&highlight=Voidal+Replications

the posts say this

'Well, as far as I can tell there is no infinite loop. If Voidal Replication duplicates a Voidal Replication, it just duplicates whatever that Voidal Replication duplicated.'

'A duplicate is not meant to be an actual tactic. The reason that the rules define the duplicate's cost number is because the next sentence after it describes how extra costs must still be satisfied for the duplicate. I felt it was important to define that the cost number didn't matter and that the threshold didn't matter.

So, in the combo when you use the Ectapal Stave you must look at Voidal Replications' cost of 3, not the duplicate's cost of 0. I intentionally changed how duplication worked to avoid this type of problem. The duplicate command simply generates something that has the extra costs and effect of whatever it was duplicating. That's all.

This means, very plainly, that the combo doesn't work as described.'


hope this helps
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[joshlytle]

I ran across this thread too. I also understand how I've ruled it, but I can't figure out why that makes any sense under the current rules. I'm going to have to think about this and develop a real solution.

[kallisti]

I'm having trouble forming a coherent, logical picture of how duplicates work.



307.3 If an effect restricts you from playing tactics, any duplicates created while that restriction is active are terminated immediately.

If a duplicate is not an actual tactic, and you don't actually play it, then this rule doesn't make sense. It seems a duplicate is some sort of non-well-defined entity.

IMO, the model for duplicates should be Micromajigs. A duplicate should be a tactic token. For example,

RANDOM ABILITY
COST: Deplete this card.
EFFECT: Play a Micromadraw token. A Micromadraw token is a Banker Tactic with 0 cost and "Draw a card."

[joshlytle]

A duplicate can be terminated. Why doesn't that make sense? But, a duplicate isn't a tactic. It's just a special "bag" of effects.

I think I may overhaul how Duplicate works in a major way. Some of the "ugliness" of the current system probably isn't that relevant any more. It might change how stuff works, but it will be better for the rules.

[kallisti]

A duplicate can be terminated. Why doesn't that make sense? But, a duplicate isn't a tactic. It's just a special "bag" of effects.


Duplicates being terminatable is fine. But if a duplicate isn't a tactic, why should a "tactics can't be played" effect stop one?

[joshlytle]

Because that's how we setup the rules. It just makes sense from a high level.

[kallisti]

Because that's how we setup the rules. It just makes sense from a high level.

I just don't see how it makes sense that a "tactics can't be played" effect can stop a non-tactic which isn't even being played.

The rules should clarify interactions between cards, not change certain card text to do something completely different, except when absolutely necessary.

[Lioge]

Ok, here are points of interest wrt Voidal Replication (VR from here on).

1. VR is a tactic.
2. VR creates a duplicate of the last played tactic (or the tactic to which it is responding).
3. The duplicate isn't considered played.
3a. Relevant due to cards like Sadistic Colonel (SC from here on). The VR triggers the SC but the duplicate doesn't? Or does the duplicate trigger SC but not VR?
3b. What about the eventual card that states "Play this only after a card was played. X is the last card played's numeric cost. Deal X damage target creature, location, or faction." Would this theoretical card deal the numeric cost of the duplicate or of VR? The last card played was VR, and the duplicate happened. I'm confused on this one.

Thoughts?

[caveboybc]

I am lovin this!!! After 18 months of wondering and using house rules to satisfy intent it looks like the chisel may finally strike the tablet on this one:)

....and for some strange reason it got me to thinking about how to fairly use E.O. in constructed play.:chomp:

[NoobixCube]

I did have a long post about how Voidal Replication can't possibly target Voidal Replication because it resolves immediately after it's played, but I didn't read the card properly... It says "Last tactic played this turn", not "target tactic". However, Voidal Replication duplicating Voidal Replication, near as I can tell, would mean you move onto the previous "last tactic played this turn". The wording of the cards is open to a little recursion, but that's the common-sense out, I think. Duplicates aren't technically played though, so Sadistic Colonel will only trigger once, when you duplicate VR.

That's one adjustment I'll have to get used to, coming from Magic. The wording on the cards is a lot less formal - don't get me wrong, I prefer it this way. When I play a game, I want to feel like I'm playing a game, not interpreting my life insurance policy, but you have to admit, Wizards have done a lot to strip ambiguity and misinterpretations from their cards.

[waiya]

Josh why dont you add an errata to the card

"This card can not be duplicated"

though this removes the ability to play 2 voidal replications in a row, it serves to shut down the automatic draws.

cause as it stand any deck running obsession can toss these in as a "just in case " when facing decks they know they can't win and take the draw instead.

[Hordak]

It doesn't cause a draw, it would just duplicate the tactic that Voidal Replication duplicated.

[KingOfBadaBing]

I just don't see how it makes sense that a "tactics can't be played" effect can stop a non-tactic which isn't even being played.

The rules should clarify interactions between cards, not change certain card text to do something completely different, except when absolutely necessary.
I think a solution to this could come from adding something to the CRR regarding the nature of a duplicate. Just add in a line such as "Duplicates are affected by cards that affect tactics but are not considered tactics."

Then, a situation such as this

1. Player A plays Scrag
2. Player B responds by activating Ectypal Stave
3. Player A responds (to VR) by playing Bask Bile
4. Player B responds (to BB) by playing Tactician Vacation
5. Tactician Vacation Resolves
6. Bask Bile is terminated.
7. Voidal Replication resolves. Scrag copy is immediately terminated
8. Scrag resolves.

Would play out rather easily. Well, this is how it would play out under the current rules anyway, I'm just trying to help resolves Kallisti's issue with the nature of duplicates.

OR, as a second thought, maybe you could word duplicates as "duplicates can be generated whenever tactics may be played" that way it is worded similarly to Sudden Osprey (or other such characters) that aren't tactics but can be played at "tactic speed" if you catch my drift.

P.S. Also, I have no idea why a situation like this would come up in an actual game, but hey, anything can happen. Heck I once had to Bask Bile a Contriving Engineer (who only had 1 life) just because I REALLY didn't want him to have that Luteoderm Goliath.
________
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[jedibcg]

Then, a situation such as this

1. Player A plays Scrag
2. Player B plays Voidal Replication
3. Player A responds (to VR) by playing Bask Bile
4. Player B responds (to BB) by playing Tactician Vacation
5. Tactician Vacation Resolves
6. Bask Bile is terminated.
7. Voidal Replication resolves. Scrag copy is immediately terminated
8. Scrag resolves.



Okay maybe my brain is forgetting something because it often does in my old age. But I don't understand you step 7. Why is Scrag copy immediately terminated? Are you basing this on josh's ruling that they can be terminated?

Nevermind read the rule. Pay no attention. I think Josh should be retaking a look at VR then. Because I agree that does not seem to make sense that VR does not resolve but Scrag does.

[Hordak]

Luckily that can't happen because VR cannot be responded to.

[KingOfBadaBing]

Luckily that can't happen because VR cannot be responded to.

Doh. I'll rework it.
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[KingOfBadaBing]

:D

P.S. I hate you Hordak
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[KingOfBadaBing]

Because I agree that does not seem to make sense that VR does not resolve but Scrag does.

The Voidal Replication (or in the re-worked version of my situation with the not-illegal-play Ectypal Stave) does resolve, just the copy doesn't.
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[tgrtrax]

the copy would resolve because only the last tatic played is terminated and that would be BB the copy of scrag would not be touched either way.
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[tgrtrax]

also the big question i have is this:

is a copy a tatic or not?

if it is then all other cards interact with it like normal including voidal replication.
if not then vr will not copy a copy. lets play a game here.

Ectypal Stave
Rare
2
Item

COUNTERFEIT
COST: Use this only if a tactic has been played this turn. Pay 2+X, where X is the numeric cost of the last tactic played this turn. Deplete this card.
EFFECT: Duplicate the tactic.


Voidal Replication
Uncommon
3
Tactic

Your opponent cannot respond to this card.

COST: Play this only if a tactic has been played this turn.

EFFECT: Duplicate the last tactic played this turn.


Reality Shift
Rare
7
Tactic

X is the total numeric cost of all non-resource cards you control. Put those cards into their owner?s hand. You may play any number of cards for free with total numeric cost X or less. (You still need to meet their threshold and satisfy their extra costs.)

we will be using these three cards in diffrent orders.

with ES in play i play RS then activate ES. let us assume i have a way to pay the cost of ES over and over. what is the ES copying? the origional or the copy?

so now lets say i play RS then VR then do the ES will ES copy VR or the copy of RS?

lets say you play bask bile and i VR it then i ES the VR how much will the ES cost?
i think somewhere in all this there is a way to cause a draw. or do we copy the copys which are not tatics?


my head hurts.

and how will this all work with sadistic?
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[KingOfBadaBing]

the copy would resolve because only the last tatic played is terminated and that would be BB the copy of scrag would not be touched either way.

This is not true because of this rule:
307.3 If an effect restricts you from playing tactics, any duplicates created while that restriction is active are terminated immediately.

The Tactician Vacation resolves before the copy of Scrag is created, therefore when the Stave resolves and the Scrag is created it is terminated immediately.


also the big question i have is this:

is a copy a tatic or not?

In the thread you referenced earlier it states, and as the rules stand right now, it is clear that a copy is not a tactic. How this interacts with other cards is what we are trying to resolve.
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[jedibcg]

The Voidal Replication (or in the re-worked version of my situation with the not-illegal-play Ectypal Stave) does resolve, just the copy doesn't.

True. I mis-spoke. But that still doesn't seem to make sense. The duplicate is terminated but the scrag is not. Any tactic played before Tactician Vacation resolves as normal (including the VR), but the duplicates don't. I understand that that is the rules are designed to function. However I don't understand why. Why does a duplicate function differently than a tactic? Or moreover why did we have VR create a duplicate in the first place instead of the original copy the last tactic played?

[KingOfBadaBing]

True. I mis-spoke. But that still doesn't seem to make sense. The duplicate is terminated but the scrag is not. Any tactic played before Tactician Vacation resolves as normal (including the VR), but the duplicates don't. I understand that that is the rules are designed to function. However I don't understand why. Why does a duplicate function differently than a tactic? Or moreover why did we have VR create a duplicate in the first place instead of the original copy the last tactic played?

This is because, as far as the actual time line works, the duplicate is created after the Tactician Vacation dictates that no more tactics can be played this turn. I guess I can see this being weird because the duplicate isn't technically "played" but that is probably why the rule is there in the first place.

My guess is that the rule is there to prevent some sort of strange string of tactics that would "break through" a Tactician Vacation due to duplicates being created after the Tac Vac resolves.. At the moment I don't think there is a way to abuse this so it probably serves as a way to prevent any future interactions that Josh and the other designers thought of yet.
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[tgrtrax]

correct KOBB
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[jedibcg]

Right but VR cannot be responded to so I would think the original intent of the card would be that TV would not terminate it. It is only when the card was changed to creating duplicates from the original copy tactic that this occured. I am wondering why the change was made.

[Hordak]

Josh said that he needed to rework duplicates, and this is exactly the reason. It was never 100% clear how duplicates interacted with the rest of the game except that duplicates could be duplicated - it was stated plainly that VR into VR does not end in a draw and that VR2 will copy whatever VR1 copied

[Oneyus]

Did the rules for duplicates ever get ironed out?