Cost of tourneys

[jedibcg]

I understand that game shops need to staff events that they make no money off of but looking at the cost of some of the bigger invents I am wondering who they are getting to staff these events?

Pastime events are $10 entry. Okay I might be able to see that...5 hour event means $2 an hour per person...staff should be able to handle 4-8 ppl means $8-16 an hour per 4-8 group...if there is more then that they get another person.

PES is charging $20 for its 5k Detroit event that is $16-32 per staff if you use the same ratio. Maybe they are staffing more people per gamer. (Sorry miss calculation....based on 5 hour event.....)


King Games 10k event is $30 entry. That works out to be $24-48 an hour to babysit 4-8 gamers. (Sorry miss calculation....based on 5 hour event.....)

I know you can figure in store space the event is taking up that some other event would making money for the store. But I also know often judges are 'paid' in product not cash. Product not from the stores inventory but from the game company. I also understand that this is more in-line with other gaming events big tourneys are more expensive to get into than the smaller ones. So my only question really is who decided these amounts in general for the various events. Did TG give a suggest, a ballpark number, a maxium, or is it just completely up to the host store/organizer?


I guess I should add that I am not complaining. But curious. I am willing to shell out some bucks to have fun regardless if I win or not.

[LucienofShadow]

As far as I know it's completely up to the store. It's my opinion that they are charging more as it is only in its Beta and is less likely to draw large numbers of people than an event for, say, Vs. System.

[Ultamis]

Kings is charging 7.50 for a sealed draft with only one judge and we get no prizes for winning(dont tournament kits come with 2 promos,one for the judge and one for the winner??).So 7.50x8 ppl=$60/5 hours=$12 per hour so judges get that AND 2 promos per event.Hey kings,thats abit much to sit and wait to answer a question like "Can a Ferrous Ferret survive a Hidden Sniper's snipe?".Correct me if judges get less then what I said.Also 7.50 is abit high for cards that you pay about,lets calculate this...$0 for.Also its not a good idea to raise the price every week.If you didnt know,thats one of the reasons no people showed up for the iPod today.Hey TG,you should send a note along with the boxes stating what the promos are for.Another thing about kg,they said they arent supposed to give out more then one box a week...dont they get 2 boxes per week??Il say it again,stop raising the prices,whats better,getting 8 ppl paying 5$ each,or getting 2 ppl paying 10$ each?OH wait 2 people a tournament dosnt make.[/rant]

[JMatthew]

I can understand Ultamis' complaint, however jedibcg is forgetting the fact that A) it cost money to run a business - everyday is more bills than you can imagine and B) these are events for some serious money. What? Should they be for free? The time, space and effort these stores are putting into hosting these events (of which there is also preparation and work before and AFTER the event that has to go in) should be compensated in some fashion. After all, that's one day where they have to cancel on their Yugi-Oh or MTG or something to run the game ;)

[Ultamis]

I understand that they have bills to pay but they host yugioh/M:tG/Vs BEFORE they would run a spoils game.Some of the yugioh events get 100~ people,and at 15 bucks per person im sure that pays for something.They also have computers and video games that you pay to use,not to mention the TCG/CCG items and snacks/drinks.Im not saying run spoils for free,but be reasonable.I can understand 7.50 if we had a chance to win something(aside from a .75 cent snickers,that dose NOT justify 2.50 MORE then what the original charge was).Maybe you need some more money for the store this month but your just going to lose costumers by raising prices for no reason(as in "no reason the costumers know").Hey heres an idea,stop getting products that no one buys,like raw deal and why does a card store/internet cafe need a section for SWORDS(yes actual swords)?[/rant]

[jedibcg]

I can understand Ultamis' complaint, however jedibcg is forgetting the fact that A) it cost money to run a business - everyday is more bills than you can imagine and B) these are events for some serious money. What? Should they be for free? The time, space and effort these stores are putting into hosting these events (of which there is also preparation and work before and AFTER the event that has to go in) should be compensated in some fashion. After all, that's one day where they have to cancel on their Yugi-Oh or MTG or something to run the game ;)


Actually I did mention A...or at least it is suppose to be in there. What B has to do with the cost I haven't a clue. If it is that only people with money are suppose to be able to play for money then it sounds like 'rich getting richer' that politicians love to throw out there. But anyway I don't think it address my real question as to what determine the cost. The only thing I can come up with is comparing it to other games big events' cost (which is about on par). However I would argue that we want to get people into the game not limit them from it. I don't know it is just a question.

[JMatthew]

What B) has to do with the cost is that the normal structure for these types of tournaments is that a set amount from each player entered is reimbursed to the company providing the prize support. If you charge to low then you make absolutely nothing. If you charge to high, then yes, you are sort of ripping people off. I'm not sure what TG policy is on this first round of premiere tournaments, though.

Ultimas - no, I completely agree that from what you describe the store you are refering to is ripping you guys off. Unless they snagged an OB from eBay or something that $7.50 is pure profit. I'm sure they are sitting there telling themselves that it's the cost of running the tournament, but I believe that's a little high - esp. if they aren't giving away ANY of the free promos they recieved. While I've been waiting on funding to go through for my own store I've had to run the first couple of OB in alternative locations yet I've still remained proffessional enough to follow TG simple, simple request. That's just sad.

[jedibcg]

TG doesn't get a dime of the cost of these tourneys.

[JMatthew]

That maybe the case for this initial release, though I can pretty much assure you that won't be the way things work in the future - at least not if they want to continue to do "big" money tournaments. Of course, your question is, "Does this justify the current price "gouging?" "

[jedibcg]

I don't know about all events but most that I have been to the money still doesn't go back to the card company. They make their money off selling the product.

[xezol]

I do tournies so I can confirm that the kits spell out who is supposed to get what cards for doing what. There is 1 foil Micromajig, 1 random foil Common, and 2 foil Tournament Faction cards. I don't have a sheet with me so I can't say right now.

It is also in the kit that you can charge if you need to but to be reasonable. $7.50 with no prizes is not reasonable to me.

[Taiga_yuri]

King's dosen't get STK's they have product but no kit. TG is sending out some foils for them to use with their events in the future. So hopefully they will make it up to you.


Kings is charging 7.50 for a sealed draft with only one judge and we get no prizes for winning(dont tournament kits come with 2 promos,one for the judge and one for the winner??).So 7.50x8 ppl=$60/5 hours=$12 per hour so judges get that AND 2 promos per event.Hey kings,thats abit much to sit and wait to answer a question like "Can a Ferrous Ferret survive a Hidden Sniper's snipe?".Correct me if judges get less then what I said.Also 7.50 is abit high for cards that you pay about,lets calculate this...$0 for.Also its not a good idea to raise the price every week.If you didnt know,thats one of the reasons no people showed up for the iPod today.Hey TG,you should send a note along with the boxes stating what the promos are for.Another thing about kg,they said they arent supposed to give out more then one box a week...dont they get 2 boxes per week??Il say it again,stop raising the prices,whats better,getting 8 ppl paying 5$ each,or getting 2 ppl paying 10$ each?OH wait 2 people a tournament dosnt make.[/rant]

[YugiDad]

The way the kit lays it out is

Random foil to 1st place
Tournament Faction to 2nd
Tournament Faction to Judge
Micromig to Store

It does say on the sheet on the kits that the foils may change in the future.

As for entry fees, we do not charge for our open beta's using the STK. We charge $10 for our $750 value tournaments (top prize XBox 360 and Nintendo DS lite) and $15 for our $1500 cash tournament (Top prize is $600 and cash goes down to 16th).

A Open Beta with the STK lasts about 5 hours. Our last $750 lasted about 10 hours from the start of registration to the final round (the top 2 prize split so that saved time) Our first $1500 is this coming weekend and I am guesing that it will be over 11 hours.

When you are considering income from the events remember that there are site costs for the organizers as well.

[kingsgames]

Hey guys,

I'd like to address the issue of event costs raised by Ultamis.

At Kings Games we currently charge $5 for a 4-pack booster draft or $7.50 for a 6 pack Sealed Pack tournament (though as of the last few weeks new players get a FREE entry). Yes, we get the product for free from TG. It came in cases, not in tournament kits as it was product allocated for all of our events, including Premier cash tournaments. We gave out the few Tournament Factions and other promos we had, while we had them. I will ask folks at TG if we can get some more promos for the weekly tournaments.

We are trying to keep the product we use down to about a box a week because we want to make sure that we do not run out before the end of beta is over. However, that does not mean we would turn any players away from a scheduled tournament - it just means we won't let a group of regulars have an extra 4-man sealed pack event just so they can get their hands on more very cheap cards at the expense of potential new players wanting to try The Spoils in October.

So why the $5-7.50 charge? As much as I personally enjoy The Spoils or Vs System or a number of other games I play, Kings Games is first and foremost a business. We run events so that we can make a profit. If we run a Magic draft, you will get 3 packs for $12 and we will make about $6. Why shouldn't we charge $5 for the four packs you are getting in The Spoils draft? That's only $1.25 profit for the store per pack, which is less than we get when we sell booster packs of any other TCG that we carry.

We have plenty of bills to pay to support our play space (this month the electric bill alone was about $1250) and while we do very well with some of the other tournaments (as 100-person YuGiOh events were mentioned), I make no apologies for making a profit from any product line we carry.

As to Ultamis' comments about our other product lines, I find them quite ignorant and juvenile. Just because YOU do not play some other game (like Raw Deal) does not mean others don't.

Anyway, on to jedibcg's original question:

TG solicited opinions from organizers about Premier event fees and in the end settled on $10 for $250/500 tournaments, $15 for $1000, $20 for $2500-5000 and $30 for $10,000 (if memory serves me right). This is intended to both compensate the PTO for their time and effort, but also make sure we do not undervalue future Spoils premier events after the game comes out and packs have a real price tag on them.

Please do not assume that $10 entry fee means a $10 profit for the store/organizer. Last week we ran a $250 tournament on Long Island where 11 players showed up (and paid $10 each). After paying a fee to the hosting store, paying the judge (yes, actual cash money) and paying for the gas, we lost about $20 overall on the deal. When we host events in-store it is obviously much more profitable, but there are still quite a few little costs that add up.

$30 for the 10K is consistent with what you would pay to play in similar events for other games such as a Magic Grand Prix or Vs System 10K. Given that you won't have to compete with 600+ players for your share of that $10,000 as you would at a Grand Prix, it sounds like a pretty attractive deal to me.

Alex Shvartsman
Kings Games

[jedibcg]

Thanks Alex that is all I wanted to know. Like I said I was just curious where they amount came from I knew they were about what you would play for similar events in other games, but didn't know if TG had a hand in the coming up with the cost or not. I also understand that you want everyone to be ready for these costs now and not be shocked when we are out of OB. I just wanted it confirmed. So thanks again.

[smilelttldevil]

If you don't want to pay to play in the event, no one is making you.

[Zambo]

Anyway, on to jedibcg's original question:

TG solicited opinions from organizers about Premier event fees and in the end settled on $10 for $250/500 tournaments, $15 for $1000, $20 for $2500-5000 and $30 for $10,000 (if memory serves me right). This is intended to both compensate the PTO for their time and effort, but also make sure we do not undervalue future Spoils premier events after the game comes out and packs have a real price tag on them.

Please do not assume that $10 entry fee means a $10 profit for the store/organizer. Last week we ran a $250 tournament on Long Island where 11 players showed up (and paid $10 each). After paying a fee to the hosting store, paying the judge (yes, actual cash money) and paying for the gas, we lost about $20 overall on the deal. When we host events in-store it is obviously much more profitable, but there are still quite a few little costs that add up.

$30 for the 10K is consistent with what you would pay to play in similar events for other games such as a Magic Grand Prix or Vs System 10K. Given that you won't have to compete with 600+ players for your share of that $10,000 as you would at a Grand Prix, it sounds like a pretty attractive deal to me.

Alex Shvartsman
Kings Games

I love that you're sharing this stuff with us, Alex. I was questioning the listed event cost for the 1K in Columbus (it's $20) on the PES website (thought it was a bit high); now I see why I was leery.

-Z

[jedibcg]

If you don't want to pay to play in the event, no one is making you.
Was this directed at me?