Another Timing Question

[jedibcg]

Here is the set up. I have Ashes of Zenobia and Swarm of Gnats. My opponent has character X.

I Nullify off the Ashes of Zenobia (COST- Pay 5. EFFECT- Both Players must put a character they control into its owner's hand.) Now the question is two fold. Do the characters return to hand simutenously or one at a time with me choosing the order? Is character X in my opponents hand at the time my Swarm of Gants leaves play?

[Jason Legassie]

I am under the impression that they would both be returned simultaneously, unless you the text says that you target both of the characters that are being returned. Because it says that each player picks a character to return to their hand, the resolving would be simultaneous. I think.

[ShuffleAndCut]

Things don't happen simultaenously in this game - it's in the rules. If two things would happen at the same time, the person controlling the effect chooses the order in which the effects happen. So as written, you could make the Swarm go back to the hand first or last, whichever is desired, and the opponent would then appropriately discard.

Scott

[whoru]

Well, wouldn't Gants effect have to wait until the current effect completely resolves?

such as:
Swarm of Gants is returned.
Character X is returned.
Player 2 then discards as per the effect of Gants.

and not like this:
Gantz returns.
Player 2 discards.
Character X is returned to player 2's hand.

Just trying to clarify so that when i make it to a demo, i will know :spade: !

[Trakix]

I would assume that you are correct that they would both happen before any other effects could take place. I very well could be wrong, but when it comes to my gaming intuition, that is what I would see as the intent of the rules.

[MNKistler]

Well, wouldn't Gants effect have to wait until the current effect completely resolves?

such as:
Swarm of Gants is returned.
Character X is returned.
Player 2 then discards as per the effect of Gants.

and not like this:
Gantz returns.
Player 2 discards.
Character X is returned to player 2's hand.

Just trying to clarify so that when i make it to a demo, i will know :spade: !
No. There is no stack and there are no "objects" on a stack. There is only rules text to be followed word for word, one word at a time. If something happens in the middle of an ability, it happens right then.

This does go against some players' intuition, but it's been discussed previously on the boards. Earlier I offered to write an article viewing The Spoils rules from an "abstract" point of view, breaking it down into a "system," since the naturalness and elegance of this simplified (yet still strategically designed) rules system often confuses the veteren CCG/TCG player. If others think such a break down and systematic analyzation could make it feel more solid and rules-like, let me know.

[ShuffleAndCut]

Well, wouldn't Gants effect have to wait until the current effect completely resolves?

such as:
Swarm of Gants is returned.
Character X is returned.
Player 2 then discards as per the effect of Gants.

and not like this:
Gantz returns.
Player 2 discards.
Character X is returned to player 2's hand.

Just trying to clarify so that when i make it to a demo, i will know :spade: !

Nope - Degenerate Molestation ruling.

You have to stop thinking Magic on this game - it will wreck your ability to judge. Took me almost 2 weeks to stop thinking that way....I'm pretty sure I would screw up judging a Magic tournament now.

In magic, nothing can happen before a spell/ability completely resolves. This isn't Magic, it's Spoils. Here, things happen 1 at a time, and things that would trigger in the middle of something will trigger and will cause something else to happen before resolution.

My question:

You can't respond to Degenerate Molestation. Can you respond to a spell played from Degenerate Molestations effect, or can you not respond as long as DM is on the stack?

Scott

[1r0n w!LL]

My question:

You can't respond to Degenerate Molestation. Can you respond to a spell played from Degenerate Molestations effect, or can you not respond as long as DM is on the stack?

I am reasonably certain that you can respond to any of cards played off of DM. I don't see any reason why DM would extend its effect to the cards played off of it.

Also they are cards not spells. ;)

[ShuffleAndCut]

Also they are cards not spells. ;)

As stated, hard to break the Magic mentality sometimes - especially in quick posts. :)

Scott

[joshlytle]

Things don't happen simultaenously in this game - it's in the rules. If two things would happen at the same time, the person controlling the effect chooses the order in which the effects happen. So as written, you could make the Swarm go back to the hand first or last, whichever is desired, and the opponent would then appropriately discard.

Scott

This is an interesting point you've raised. The intent of the "things don't happen simultaneously" rule was to handle multiple cards or ability's effect's occuring at once. It was not meant to encompass cases like a single instruction putting two characters into their owner's hands.

So in this case, both characters are put into their owner's hands simultaneously. Then, the Swarm of Gnats triggers and your opponent must discard a card (which could be the character recently put into their hand).

This particular section of the rules is getting a lot of attention and will be tightened up a little on the next rules release.

Josh Lytle

[ShuffleAndCut]

This is an interesting point you've raised. The intent of the "things don't happen simultaneously" rule was to handle multiple cards or ability's effect's occuring at once. It was not meant to encompass cases like a single instruction putting two characters into their owner's hands.

So in this case, both characters are put into their owner's hands simultaneously. Then, the Swarm of Gnats triggers and your opponent must discard a card (which could be the character recently put into their hand).

This particular section of the rules is getting a lot of attention and will be tightened up a little on the next rules release.

Josh Lytle

Good idea. :) It can just get a little confusing on things such as this. The problem is knowing when to take the rules literally and when you should take them logically. I've gone logical a few times and been burned, so....

So for the sake of clarification, which player would have to announce their character returning first? This can obviously be key in decision making.

Scott

[joshlytle]

Good idea. :) It can just get a little confusing on things such as this. The problem is knowing when to take the rules literally and when you should take them logically. I've gone logical a few times and been burned, so....

So for the sake of clarification, which player would have to announce their character returning first? This can obviously be key in decision making.

Scott

Ah well, that question is handled by the conflict section of the rules. Whoever's controls Ashes of Zenobia would decide what order the players choose. However, once both people had decided then the characters would be put into their owner's hand simultaneously.

Josh Lytle