13 x 13

[ShuffleAndCut]

Okay....I don't get it, so I'm asking about it.

Why are non-beta boxes going to be 13 cards per pack (understand this one) and 13 packs per box (can't even imagine how this is going to get packages). Having a prime number of packs seems like possibly the worst idea ever in packaging. No clean box usage for drafts, no ability to cleanly "split" a box.....

Someone from TG please explain this logic besides being somewhat cool of it being 13 x 13 - everything else in this game seems to shy away from doing things merely because they are "cool".

Scott

[Great White Nothing]

Maybe they thought the extra packs could be used as a prize?

I don't know, but I have to agree with S+C on this one, that's a pretty lousy packaging plan.

[xezol]

Plus typically any game that comes in lower pack quantities per box are more expensive when you buy them by the box. There just isn't as much room to work on getting a good price out of 13 packs.

[ShuffleAndCut]

I'm sure there is a good reason. Everything I have seen out of Tenacious so far has had wisdom beyond my immediate sight, so I'm not going to fully judge until I've heard more on it.

[Century]

Okay....I don't get it, so I'm asking about it.

Why are non-beta boxes going to be 13 cards per pack (understand this one) and 13 packs per box (can't even imagine how this is going to get packages). Having a prime number of packs seems like possibly the worst idea ever in packaging. No clean box usage for drafts, no ability to cleanly "split" a box.....

Someone from TG please explain this logic besides being somewhat cool of it being 13 x 13 - everything else in this game seems to shy away from doing things merely because they are "cool".

Scott

Smaller boxes are very retailer and kid friendly. We have seen this work on other games really well with 12 pack boxes.

Boxes are cheaper so kids can buy them, and more people buy per box.

[Great White Nothing]

My other guess would be the same reasoning for selling Protectors in packs of Fifty, ten short of what is needed for a Magic deck, but thus far, doing sneaky things like that seem to be beneath Tenacious. I doubt it, but there could be some similar thinking here along those lines.

Also, what Century said about boxes is very true, I'd be more inclined to buy a smaller cheap booster box than a large one with more cards ue to my inconsistent budget.

[Parkmania]

But the question is where to draw the line. The only thing I can currently see being done with a 13-pack box is two people splitting the cost, opening 6 packs each, playing a "tourney final", and giving the winner the extra pack. I personally would sooner see the 24-pack box split 4 ways for a "Top 4".

[marjanovich]

maybe because they're doing things so differently there not coming in boxes but large plates (follow me here), 12 packs equals a number on a clockface with the 13th being the center, some sorta giant frisbee distribution... heck that even kills 2 birds with 1 stone, get a 100ft long skeet shooter to launch the distribution frisbee at the retailers...

<tongue in cheek>

in other words I have no idea

[LucienofShadow]

Thirteen just seems to be a silly number packaging wise. Unless all the cards will be in a single stack... It wouldn't be the traditional package, but it works.

[painted_klown]

My initial thoughts were price points. If you keep the prices of the boxes low enough then more people are likely to buy boxes instead of just buying packs. It is a lot easier to save up and buy a box of The Spoils than almost any other game on the market (currently in print) It makes sense for TG to do this for that reason and it makes sense for the comnsumer just to buy boxes all the time and get more bang for the buck, and more packs of cards sold by TG. I usually buy games by the box anyway so I was pleased to see the great pricing for these boxes. Sure to keep me buying a lot of them..............almost considering that case of boosters even............:p :spade: Peace!

[Ultamis]

13 IS a strange number of packs though.If you wanted to do a booster draft and had say 15 ppl(just an example) then you would have to give out 75 packs,or 6 boxes,then have 5 packs left over,so im guessing TG was thinking of 16 person drafts.
Either that or the "Sell boxes at reasonable prices while still getting money" thing

I R DO MATHS GEWD?...XD

[turning_of_the_tide]

It may have something to do with prices. THink about it...the less cards in a pack the cheaper. And since this is a Tournement Card Game what do the good players want? Rares.... I am the kind of guy who breaks a pack takes the rare and gives the rest to some noob or little kid. If the packs are cheaper then there will be more bought therefore more chance for a particular rare. THis seems like a stretch but since we know these are pro players who helped create the game they may have a similar idea. Plus then you can go 8-4 on common uncommons which is a usual 2-1 distribution in a particular set (there tends to be 2 commons for every uncommon in set)

AS well on a different note this helps for drafting. If you draft you tend to run out of decent picks in magic by turn 10-13. 14 and 15 are usually scrap if not 12 and 13. Ths allows you to build a more solid deck with less filler. Less crap= better deck= a more fair game= happy players and a game based more on skill than luck. Is that not the point of every gameing comapnys goal? I personally like the 10 card packs and the way they are distributed now but obviously that will be changing. 13 packs in a box does not make much sense but give me a day to ponder it from a mathmatical aspect.

-Ryan

[ShuffleAndCut]

13 CPP is fine. It's a 9/3/1 rarity ratio. I have no questions behind the logic of 13 - that's perfectly fine.

I'm thinking of this as more of a puzzle now. ;) Tenacious has given us a puzzle to figure out the 13 Packs Per Box issue. I'm thinking it may actually be something for retail....

A lot of games are packaged in 12 pack boxes (Inuyasha, Full Metal Alchemist, etc...). By running a 13 pack box, you get a "Buy a box and get a free pack" promotion. The 13th pack doesn't make sense, but 12 do. So, my best guess is that it is what may be one of the most brilliant marketting strategies ever and a way to help retailers sell it by the box. You pay for 12 and you get 13. If that's it, then I think I've gone from thinking this is compeltely awful to thinking it maybe simply be brilliant beyond what I could have previously thought. It sure will make it easier for retailers to use this strategy to sell boxes.

Someone have a better theory, because I think mine holds a bit of water. :)

Scott

[Century]

Someone have a better theory, because I think mine holds a bit of water.

Yes, I do have a better theory. It was mostly my idea. When they were down at our store giving us a demo of the game before Open Beta, I brought up box size. I suggested 12, they did 13, because they like the number 13. There are MANY reasons to do small boxes. Market penetration, up-sell, shelving presence, and of course I like them ;o)

[ShuffleAndCut]

Yes, I do have a better theory. It was mostly my idea. When they were down at our store giving us a demo of the game before Open Beta, I brought up box size. I suggested 12, they did 13, because they like the number 13. There are MANY reasons to do small boxes. Market penetration, up-sell, shelving presence, and of course I like them ;o)

I really wish this post had been posted by ANYONE other than you so I could rip into it. :( Considering our differing backgrounds though, I will just make my point. :)

From a retailer perspective, small boxes are actually not that good, and I will tell you why:

Boxes of 12 sell by the box easy....too easy. The price point is generally so low that just about anyone can afford to easily purchase an entire box. Since virtually all retailers will discount full boxes by a certain percentage (usually the same percentage regardless of box size), they lose money. Remember, that when a retailer discounts a product by 10%, they are losing about 21.2% of their proft (based on an average retail discount). This means they lose the profit of a box for every 4 1/2 boxes they sell, and that is if they are selling boxes at full SRP to begin with.

Mind you, I think Magic/Pokemon/Raw Deal/etc all have it a bit big at 36 packs. We don't want to make boxes completely prohibitive to box sales, but on the flip side, you don't want them too easy.

24 is the right number. From a guy who has been in this industry about as long or longer than most every person on these forums, I can promise you it's true.

24 leads to a box sale price of around $80-$90 based on a $4 SRP per pack. This is under $100, but still high enough that someone who was going to buy "a few packs" will still just buy those packs rather than infinitely splurge for the box. Continuing, 24 is the right draft number. 8 players times 3 packs per player is 24. A groups gets a box, and they have a draft.

Finally, some of you may ask who cares about doing things from a retail perspective? Trust me - each and every last one of you. If games are not viable from a retail perspective, it will die so fast you won't know what hit it. If stores don't support a game, it will not flourish. If enough stores don't support it, it dies. Now, I'm not trying to say that a 13 pack box makes this bad from a retail perspective. I'm just trying to say that 24 is the most optimal number. Continuing my last post theory, go 25 - give us the extra. Plus, 25 = 5x5, so you can do fun things with that.

But thank you Century for letting us know that you are the reason we'll have 13 pack boxes. I'm just happy we were able to get this information out over Al Gore's Internet. :)

Scott Gerhardt

[Jack Daniels]

as i can agree with you 1 box worth of lost proffit isn't much really and sence the buyer is more apt to buy a box when it is small you have the potential to sell more in your average month (take me for instance i would rather buy one box every other month than waist time with packs) just cause it's so easy to buy 13 packs at a time. i have 3 boxes pre ordered all ready


in all it just averages out really if you think about it

[ShuffleAndCut]

as i can agree with you 1 box worth of lost proffit isn't much really and sence the buyer is more apt to buy a box when it is small you have the potential to sell more in your average month (take me for instance i would rather buy one box every other month than waist time with packs) just cause it's so easy to buy 13 packs at a time. i have 3 boxes pre ordered all ready


in all it just averages out really if you think about it

Trust me. As a multi-retail shop owner who looks at and analyzes numbers day in and day out, I can tell you it most certainly does NOT average out. The numbers in the losses may seem trivial, but multiply it times 100. Anything, multiplied on a grand scale, becomes WAY less than trivial.

I'm not going to sit here and do the math that retailers more experienced than I spend hours giving seminars over, but just trust me when I tell you that is most certainly does not average out.

Scott

[Cydereal]

Clearly the answer is a hidden message to us tinfoil hat wearing obsession players.

[jedibcg]

I really wish this post had been posted by ANYONE other than you so I could rip into it. :( Considering our differing backgrounds though, I will just make my point. :)

From a retailer perspective, small boxes are actually not that good, and I will tell you why:

Boxes of 12 sell by the box easy....too easy. The price point is generally so low that just about anyone can afford to easily purchase an entire box. Since virtually all retailers will discount full boxes by a certain percentage (usually the same percentage regardless of box size), they lose money. Remember, that when a retailer discounts a product by 10%, they are losing about 21.2% of their proft (based on an average retail discount). This means they lose the profit of a box for every 4 1/2 boxes they sell, and that is if they are selling boxes at full SRP to begin with.

Mind you, I think Magic/Pokemon/Raw Deal/etc all have it a bit big at 36 packs. We don't want to make boxes completely prohibitive to box sales, but on the flip side, you don't want them too easy.

24 is the right number. From a guy who has been in this industry about as long or longer than most every person on these forums, I can promise you it's true.

24 leads to a box sale price of around $80-$90 based on a $4 SRP per pack. This is under $100, but still high enough that someone who was going to buy "a few packs" will still just buy those packs rather than infinitely splurge for the box. Continuing, 24 is the right draft number. 8 players times 3 packs per player is 24. A groups gets a box, and they have a draft.

Finally, some of you may ask who cares about doing things from a retail perspective? Trust me - each and every last one of you. If games are not viable from a retail perspective, it will die so fast you won't know what hit it. If stores don't support a game, it will not flourish. If enough stores don't support it, it dies. Now, I'm not trying to say that a 13 pack box makes this bad from a retail perspective. I'm just trying to say that 24 is the most optimal number. Continuing my last post theory, go 25 - give us the extra. Plus, 25 = 5x5, so you can do fun things with that.

But thank you Century for letting us know that you are the reason we'll have 13 pack boxes. I'm just happy we were able to get this information out over Al Gore's Internet. :)

Scott Gerhardt

Okay??? If you make up the difference in quanity it makes up the difference. That is the reason retailers do do discounts on larger quanities. If you buy more packs it is more profit...it is not a higher percent but it is a higher number. If a person would only buy 6 packs is convinced to buy a full box then you make more money. If you are a good retailer you know this. You want to max you UPT and DPT. You don't want to nickel and dime it out. If that was the case then don't mark down box prices.

[ShuffleAndCut]

I'm done chiming in on this subject. Unless you own 2+ retail stores....heck, I'd be willing to listen if you owned one, then please do not pretend to think that it's just all the same. It's not. Again, I'm not giving the lecture, but trying to make people who know nothing more about a game store than to give their money to the person behind the counter can not understand what I'm talking about, barring possibly a tremendous amount of college education in the area.

I'm not trying to be insulting here. Before I owned my stores I might have felt the same way as you. Now, though, I understand the finances simply work differently and now I understand why. I'm not expecting you to understand it, but please don't come across as ignorant by arguing with it.

Scott

[LucienofShadow]

Okay??? If you make up the difference in quanity it makes up the difference. That is the reason retailers do do discounts on larger quanities. If you buy more packs it is more profit...it is not a higher percent but it is a higher number. If a person would only buy 6 packs is convinced to buy a full box then you make more money. If you are a good retailer you know this. You want to max you UPT and DPT. You don't want to nickel and dime it out. If that was the case then don't mark down box prices.


S&C may be done chiming in, but I'd like to try and clarify his point.

1 pack= $4

24x4= $96

To encourage the purchase of boxes, let's say that there is a 5% discount. May or may not be accurate, but it will work for now.

96x .95= $91.20

So functionally you will be getting one free pack and then some. If it ends up being a 'buy a box, get a pack free' deal, here's what the price of the box of 13 packs would be.

$48 pays for 12 packs. Then you need to figure in the 5% discount.

$45.60

It looks like it should all be the same to the retailer. But then you need to remember that they'll have effectively payed for the extra pack themselves.

Unless of course Tenacious Games Inc. does what I think they will do; they give the retailer the same price for the box of thirteen that they would for the box of twelve.

Alright, the retailer still might not like that.

Previously, members of TGI (Fridays!) have said that they are a smaller company and are therefore more able to give us friendly pricing, etc. That means that they will probably be able to give the retailer a price that doesn't inconvienience them. Hopefully that is the case.

I think having smaller boxes is also probably a way to inspire a more independant game rather than the team oriented game that both Yu-gi-oh! and Vs. have become.

[jedibcg]

I'm done chiming in on this subject. Unless you own 2+ retail stores....heck, I'd be willing to listen if you owned one, then please do not pretend to think that it's just all the same. It's not. Again, I'm not giving the lecture, but trying to make people who know nothing more about a game store than to give their money to the person behind the counter can not understand what I'm talking about, barring possibly a tremendous amount of college education in the area.

I'm not trying to be insulting here. Before I owned my stores I might have felt the same way as you. Now, though, I understand the finances simply work differently and now I understand why. I'm not expecting you to understand it, but please don't come across as ignorant by arguing with it.

Scott

Wow own a retail shop is the only way to understand econ??? No. I have worked in a gaming store and worked in retail for years. Retail is retail whether it gaming, shoes, pet supplies or electronics. If you are not looking at the big picture then you do not understand retail. Go into your local mall and walk into any big chain and ask them about UPT and DPT. Enough of my rant.

[Jack Daniels]

as a consumer i am more likly to buy more at a time (discount or not) if the box is small. were i would normally buy 2 or 3 out of a big box a 13 pack seems more worth it to me. its more inticing to a consumer when they can buy a full box and it doesn't break there wallet. 90 is almost 1/3 of an ipod nano were 40 is only a couple DVD's.

i worked in sales (tellamarketing door to door you name it) for about 6 years and when they can keep there purchace under 50 odds are good they buy it.

[painted_klown]

OK, I just have to throw my opinion as a "consumer" in on this one. If I am looking to buy a box for a game that has 36 packs per box I, of course am going to look for the best deal. When I look at my local game shop I see those boxes going for $100.00. If I look on the internet I see the same box for $65.00..........do the math, I am definitely ordering from the web. I feel as if the local store owner is trying to gouge me in the eye. I always think to myself if only everybody had an internet connection and a few minutes then the shops would have to start pricing their boxes more competitively. That being said I would LOVE to suport my local hobby shop. Since the boxes of boosters have a lower price point I am willing to pay a bit more to support my local shop and have the instant gratification of getting my cards right then. In my humble non-store owning opinion the lower price point is a great idea to get people to buy from shops and garnering the local support the game needs. That and if someone is shopping for a new game and the price on The Spoils boxes are signifigantly less than the other boxes next to it on the shelf, the shopper may say to him/her self "wow I can get a couple pre cons and a couple booster boxes to try out this game with and if I end up not playing it I am only out less money than one of those other boxes alone would have cost me." I may not know about retail, but I do know about gamers having budgets. It's a great idea.:spade: Peace!

[ShuffleAndCut]

Wow own a retail shop is the only way to understand econ??? No. I have worked in a gaming store and worked in retail for years. Retail is retail whether it gaming, shoes, pet supplies or electronics. If you are not looking at the big picture then you do not understand retail. Go into your local mall and walk into any big chain and ask them about UPT and DPT. Enough of my rant.

a) Until it is YOUR money on the line, you don't know. You may think you do, but wait until your decisions are the difference between eating at the Steak House, the Taco Bell, or maybe the Cup O' Noodles. Just because you have worked retail doesn't mean you know the finances behind everything.

b) Retail is NOT retail. Game stores, especially in the TCG market, are very subject to secondary market factors. A Sony 32" isn't going to all of a sudden cost $200 more because of some random reason. You can predict things like electronics based on how technology evolves. You can predict the price of a Gallon of Milk based on the economy. These are long term things you can see and will take months to have an effect on price. In CCGs, prices on things can change overnight, sometimes faster. All fo a sudden you can't restock a product because they didn't print enough so the price goes up hugely. Maybe you find out something was massively overprinted so the price is sliced in half. Perhaps a set has an amazing card making the demand go through the roof. It is much more like a stock market than a retail store. As a matter of fact, I would take the opinion of a Stock Broker much higher than the opinion of Random.Retail.Person on this issue - they will understand the defining properties better.

If you think a game store in the CCG market is the same as retail, you don't know game stores.

Scott

P.S. I already asked people to not try to pipe up and sound ignorant on this subject. A number of people who ARE intelligent are piping in and making themselves sound really stupid. Please do not think you are the exception to this "you don't know what you're talking about" rule. I know Alex would understand what I'm talking about, and maybe a couple others, but if you think you're the exception to the rule, you're probably not.

[gitwer]

Let's try to take it easy with the insults here, there's no need for it.

S&C, if I read you right, you're saying that the lower box price enables more customers to purchase a full box which cuts into your profits as you have a consistent discount across the line on boxes. Instead of having customers A-L able to afford a box and selling to them at a 10% discount, while getting full price off of customers M-Z, a smaller box now enables A-T to purchase a full box; now you're only maximizing your profit on customers U-Z who are the only ones buying without the discount.

I was working closely with a store not too long ago when the idea of 12-ct. boxes for CCG products started to become more popular. The store adapted their discount policy to reflect a full "box discount" on a purchase of TWO boxes, the equivalent of your 24- (or now 26-) pack sweet spot. Why isn't this an option for you? Working off the 10% display discount model, say, a 5% (or none) for a purchase of one display and a full discount of 10% on a two-box purchase?

A store's bottom line is only affected here if they hold fast to their own discounting policies.

[painted_klown]

I guess then what I would like to know, as a consumer (from a retailer perspective) How is selling several boxes of a game at a lower price worse than selling less boxes of a higher priced game? :confused: I admit I do not see how that is bad. Please explain this to me. I don't think there is a right and wrong in this issue, it's all a matter of opinion.........like who is the best band ever or something like that. If there is a formula or something that can break it down to me I really would like to hear it. I am not trying to be rude or sarcastic, I am genuinely interested in how this is or can be bad for a store owner. I don't get it...........:spade: Peace!

[Great White Nothing]

I already asked people to not try to pipe up and sound ignorant on this subject. A number of people who ARE intelligent are piping in and making themselves sound really stupid. Please do not think you are the exception to this "you don't know what you're talking about" rule. I know Alex would understand what I'm talking about, and maybe a couple others, but if you think you're the exception to the rule, you're probably not.

Did any one else feel that ball shrinking chill? Brrr.. that's some breeze.

[gitwer]

PK, take this scenario:

I order 20 24-count display boxes of a product, with packs available at $4 per and full boxes discounted at 10%. So I'm selling sealed boxes at $86.40, whereas by the pack I'd be grossing $96 from a box if I sold those 24 packs individually.
At that price point, 10 customers can afford to buy booster boxes. I sell 10 boxes, 50% of my stock, and make $864 there. I'm lucky enough to sell out the rest of my product to customers who only buy by the pack. Those 10 boxes which I sold by the pack brought in $960. My gross take on those 20 boxes is $1824.

Now let's say I order 40 12-count display boxes, an identical 480 packs to the first example, at the same cost to me, of a similar product with identical SRP of $4/pack. My sealed box price after my 10% discount is now $43.20. At this price point, players can afford to purchase 30 sealed boxes, 75% of my stock. They do, and I gross $1296. I again sell out of my remaining 10 boxes by the pack, grossing another $480. My total take on these 40 boxes is $1776.

Granted, the example is highly simplified, but notice that I'm making less in the second example than the first. Does this paint a decent picture?

[painted_klown]

It certainly does:D Point well taken. I see now there may be a bit of loss but in the simplified version it does not include the initial investments. Wouldn't the initial investments to order the lower priced boxes be less and thus even out the profit/loss margin? I am not asking you to post how much you pay for boxes (don't get me wrong) But if a retailer pays less for a box then they can sell that box for less and still have the same profit magin. Sure the gross cash flow is less but the percentages remain the same. If I am way off base here I will concede to your way of thinking, but if I buy (3) 13 count boxes at the same price as (1) 36 count box then I can sell those boxes cheaper and still be ok. I am using consumer prices here. $31-35 for a 13 count box, $90 - $100 for a 36 count box.:spade: Peace!

[jedibcg]

P.S. I already asked people to not try to pipe up and sound ignorant on this subject. A number of people who ARE intelligent are piping in and making themselves sound really stupid. Please do not think you are the exception to this "you don't know what you're talking about" rule. I know Alex would understand what I'm talking about, and maybe a couple others, but if you think you're the exception to the rule, you're probably not.

Does that include you?:eek:

[marjanovich]

Ok, flamewars are annoying... we're diverging from the original point of this thread which used to be about distribution theory, pricing, and guesses not bashing each others brick-n-morter shops and personal attacks...

For whatever reason their packing in 13 packs to a box, it's done... either people are going to buy whole ones or not, presale buzz has been nice at my store for boxes and singles so either way it's going to sell

[ShuffleAndCut]

Factors that people are in general not looking at:

a) gross profit vs net profit. As a store you have to buy the product from someone. You guys seem to think that 10% discount means 10% less proft. Nope - not even close.

b) labor costs. It invovles more time in labor to make $.20 each off 100 packs rather than make $1.00 each off 20 packs. Additionally, you have labor in ordering, labor in stocking, etc.... If I do $10,000/month in sales to create $5,000 in profit, I may have to use, say, 300 man hours to create those sales. Now through discounting, let's say that I have to sell $16,000/month in sales to create that same $5,000 profit. A 60% increase in sales basically means a 60% increase in labor costs, or now 480 man hours. So even at that 60% increase I am LOSING money because I had to pay out 180 more hours. And there are LOTS of costs like this

c) set discretionary expenditures. Usually someone might come in with say, $50 into a game store and plan on spending that $50. If they spend it on discounted items, you will make less profit than if they spend it on full price items. Finding the way to get your customer to spend their money on the highest profit margin item is very key in business. Taking in $50 doesn't mean crap if I only make $5 profit from it. Taking in $50 is much better when I am making $25 on it.

Let's say someone comes into my store with $44 and wants to buy Spoils. I sell spoils @ $4/pack or $44/box of 13. Assume my cost is about 53% of SRP, or about $2.12/pack. Also assume tax is built in

If boxes are 13 count, then they buy a box. They spend $44 for something that cost me $27.56. I make $16.44 gross profit. If boxes are 24 count, then they buy 11 packs. It costs me $23.32. I make $20.68 gross profit. In these examples, I lose $4.24 simply because of box size.

And failing to discount by the box, regardless of the size, is bad for business. If the customers feel they are being taken advantage of, they'll go online. Everyone knows you can go online. Most people will suppost their local store because their local store supports them. If they no longer feel their local store is supporting them, they will stop supporting the local store.

Okay....I was in more of a mood to explain my situation and further explain why you guys really don't know what you're talking about. :(

Scott

[xezol]

Factors that people are in general not looking at:

a) gross profit vs net profit. As a store you have to buy the product from someone. You guys seem to think that 10% discount means 10% less proft. Nope - not even close.

Scott

Let me start by saying Whoop Dee Do.

One side of this thread are stores. They want to make money.

The other side are the customers who want cheap product.

Customers don't care about your labor times or gross profit margin. They want packs and boxes of The Spoils. You can come up with any reason you want for the prices you charge and the reasons behind it. (Monkeys are invading Poland so I have to increase prices.) There are only two factors that really will get the customers. Service and Price.